<p>Do any of you have any experience in comparing the Echols program at UVA (Echols scholars are exempt from required classes and get to register before others) to the Open Curiculum at Brown? Costs are obviously much different, but beyond that. I don't know that we'll be in this situation, but it's a possibility and am hoping for some insight. I realize I should/could post on the Colleges sites, but this one usually seems much more fruitful! Thanks much.</p>
<p>I do not have any experience with the program but it would seem as if it is a marginal benefit akin to like an honors college. I would not equate it to the open curriculum that seems to give you total reign on what you take and even allows you to take any class pass/fail.</p>
<p>I remember Echols policy was one of the reasons my son was strongly considering UVA. Sorry but I don’t remember all the details. I didn’t know about the exemption until after he got his likely letter and read up on Echols. That’s when I realized why Echols would be a good choice. Open curriculum was important to my son. </p>
<p>I believe with Echols you don’t have to fulfill any Gen Ed requirements, which is similar to Brown. While Brown lets you take whatever you want in theory, you still have to take all the requirements for your major - so despite common myth, you can’t just take anything for four years. Just as in any college, many of your courses will go toward your major. Some majors require a higher number of classes. Beyond those classes, you can choose to take ALL history classes or no history , math, art, etc. Most kids try a little of this and a little of that - depending on their individual interests. Where Brown (and probably Echols) differ from most schools is they leave it up to the student to decide which interests to pursue. Some schools without gen eds still limit you in one way or another, meeting distribution credits or whatever they choose to call their system. Even with an open curriculum, my son still complains that there isn’t enough time to take all the classes he wants. In our experience, most kids at Brown limit the number of pass/fail classes. Since many kids go on to grad school, they want a transcript full of letter grades. But like most things at Brown, the choice is theirs to make.</p>
<p>The early registration at Echols can be useful as college classes can and do fill up quickly so this can be a nice perk. The weather is definitely better in VA than in RI, although public transportation is better in RI. </p>
<p>The student body, campus size, small city vs suburban location and (social and political) atmosphere are different at Brown and UVA. But both schools are great choices to have. If you are in state and won’t receive FA, then UVA definitely has the financial edge. We are OOS but money wasn’t the issue. Brown and UVA both offered great FA. </p>
<p>I believe there is a UVA rep on this board who does a good job of answering questions. Plus we found the admission dept at UVA very accessible and friendly so call for more info about Echols. Maybe inquire at the dept level (college major) in case the major limits one’s choices. I would strongly recommend a visit to both schools, especially the days for admitted students. I seem to remember the UVA admit day conflicted with something else my son was attending so he didn’t go.</p>
<p>For my son, the decision came down to the guaranteed medical program (PLME) offered at Brown and he couldn’t pass that up. But UVA was high on his list.</p>
<p>FWIW, Brown is much more prestigious than UVA. I’d choose Brown if money is not an issue.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yeah, because things like fit, courses in major area of study, opportunities to build relationships with professors, and availability of internship positions for undergrads aren’t at ALL important – the only thing that really counts is prestige.</p>
<p>:: eyeroll ::</p>
<p>mom in virginia, two great options there!!</p>
<p>owlice,</p>
<p>+1, allow me to eye roll for you :)</p>
<p>:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:</p>
<p>thanks much jerzygrlmom and owlice–yes, we’d be very fortunate to have those choices. We’re planning to do the school visits soon which as you indicate will probably reveal our answer.</p>
<p>UVA would be a viable option even without the Echols program, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Like most other state universities, UVA lets students use AP credit to fulfill a wide variety of requirements. Anybody who could seriously be considered for Echols probably has an abundance of AP credit. So the curriculum (outside of the student’s major) wouldn’t be particularly restrictive anyhow (compared to that at private schools that do not have open curricula and that limit students’ ability to use AP credit toward general education requirements).</p>
<p>The general atmosphere at UVA is very different from that at Brown. My daughter applied to both (and ended up at a third school, which is irrelevant here). But if the choice had come down to UVA versus Brown, she would have gone to UVA. She realized after visiting Brown that she just wasn’t a Brown-type person.</p>
<p>I did preface my opinion with FWIW. So yeah it might not be worth much, but as somebody on CC (don’t remember who) likes to say: UVA may be a tad overrated and the Echols program too (from another CC member). UVA certainly would be cheaper if you’re in-state. That’s one big advantage.</p>
<p>“The general atmosphere at UVA is very different from that at Brown.”</p>
<p>Hmmmm, really??</p>
<p>Marian–thanks. I’d be interested in your opinion of what constitutes Brown-type, UVA-type, and Cornell-type students (tho I realize of course that there are exceptions to every rule). In the dark ages when I went to an ACC school and visited UVA, it seemed to me like a preppy school with a lot of drinking (have I just described a ton of colleges?). From what I read about Brown, it’s much more laid back and liberal, but kids are self-motivated. And I don’t know much about Cornell, except it’s one of the best Ivies for Science/Math and is probably more competitive. Anyway, I tried to pm you, but couldn’t get the function to work. I know as soon as you begin characterizing students, there will be objections, but am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.</p>
<p>Brown seemed to have a very laid-back feeling, with students who were more oriented toward their current college experience than to what they would do after graduation. It also seemed particularly liberal, politically. My daughter, who is not so liberal and who is very oriented toward career preparation, did not feel that she would fit in well at Brown, although it has an excellent academic reputation and a very nice campus.</p>
<p>As for the other schools you mentioned, I don’t think they have one type of student. These are large universities, with a variety of academic programs and a variety of people in them. There is definitely a “party” element on both the UVa and Cornell campuses, but it is also possible to avoid that scene completely, if you don’t happen to enjoy it. </p>
<p>UVa and Cornell remind me of each other in some ways. Cornell is an Ivy League school that in some ways resembles a top state university (because of its large size; because the majority of its students are not liberal arts majors – a situation that makes it unique in the Ivy League; and because it is a down-to-earth, relatively unpretentious place). UVa is a state school that in some ways resembles an Ivy League school (because of its selectivity, emphasis on academics, moderate size, and very strong sense of history). Despite the difference in geographic location, there’s something about each of these universities that reminds me of the other.</p>
<p>As a mom of a Brown student, I’ve met quite a few of my daughter’s friends and roommates, so I have to disagree with Marian and speak up because it is hard to swallow such impressions when the person did not even attend (sorry.) She will be going to a PhD program in Computer Science this fall, so perhaps my view is biased in that she is hanging around with others who are grad school minded folk, but it seems to me that a large amount, if not majority, of students do look to grad school and career, although I do think they treasure the undergrad experience and the open ciriculum the first two years. My daughter had only vague idea what her major would be when she started, and we never thought it would be CS. The journey was part of the education. But unquestionably when they enter, they are students who value the liberal arts education traditions.</p>
<p>Certainly her boyfriend and others in the Econ department (one of the most popular depts at Brown and traditionally recruited by Wall Street) are crushed about careeer prospects in consulting and i-banking which they had planned to go directly to. But the boyfriend has enough sense to quickly get some apps in and is already accepted to grad schools as well. Her roommate Jr year was a biomed student going to grad school; other roommate was interning, paid, at a financial firm downtown during Sr. year. Her roommate last summer was a double major pre-med plus public policy and was an athlete who went to the U.S. Olympic trials. She is currently rooming with two medical students. She was here briefly for UCLA admitted student day for grad school and met a guy from her freshman year who is now a 3rd year in the SEAS PhD program. Another boy stopped by the house, who she knows from freshman year who has an extremely well paid job in Silicon Valley (and is not laid off!), and another friend who was a Sr when she was a firstyear is at Berkeley in theoretical physics. I can’t think of anyone who I’ve met who is different than this. Including the humanities students.</p>
<p>Brown students are often low-key, but are incredibly driven multi-taskers who do so many things it makes my head spin. And this is why it was a great fit for my student who wants to do everything possible. She just took a fiction writing workshop for fun, in the Spring semester of her graduating year, and wrote an incredible story that is blowing my mind!</p>
<p>So, mom in VA, I hope you have this wonderful but difficult choice. Can’t comment on the UVA program you mention, but dd did turn down some wonderful UC schools in CA for Brown (but it worked out financially.) But none offered a program like you mention. Go to the Brown board and read some of the posts by ModestMelody–he is a Sr., I think he did Chem as an undergrad and was accepted to a 1 yr Masters program at Brown in urban education or something like that. He is one of the 2 students on the committee who recently (still?) are evaluating Brown’s Open Ciric, and he has some nice statements about the University-College model at Brown.</p>
<p>My own kid loves these things about Open C at Brown:
- can follow your interests one semester at a time (useful for when they change)
- can take classes pass/fail, (used for language classes and non-major explorations)
- can get accepted to a class without meeting prereq’s, with Prof’s approval</p>
<p>All students will have to meet requirements for the major. You write a contract with your advisor at the end of sophmore year to lay out the classes that you will take to meet it (because there can be choices within the major req’s); the contract can be revised as needed, but it must lead to you being qualified to graduate.</p>
<ul>
<li>you can do a 5 year double AB/ScB, and I think they give fin’l ad continuously</li>
<li>you can get accepted to a Masters with just one add’l year for some programs</li>
</ul>
<p>Another huge benefit my daughter encountered at Brown is the relatively easy ability to work with professors on their research, and that the university often funds such research and summer undergraduate research.</p>
<p>But UVA is such a highly regarded school and if your child gets in such a great program, I would think real hard if there is a significant financial aspect.</p>
<p>Thanks very much, Marian and BrownParent. Yes, I’ve read many ModestMelody posts and they make me think very highly indeed of Brown. You’ve given us lots to think about–thanks again.</p>