<p>Thanks, warblersrule! I was looking for those early rankings, but couldn't find them. Good for you. I'd say that list is pretty relevant to this conversation and that above quote in you post.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, turn to US News to see the true worth of a school. By that example UVA would be considered superior to UNC for the last 10+ years. Do you believe that? Hahaha...rankings are silly.</p>
<p>Jack, regarding my previous statement, I wasn't joking. The Yale guy really didn't know what school UNC was. </p>
<p>Whatever the case, I wasn't dissing on UNC. I was just agreeing with PopiEph about UVA's vs. UNC's reputation 20 years ago and shared a droll anecdote about the ignorance of some old fogey from the Ivy League. Truthfully, who cares about what he thinks and who cares about a school's reputation 20 years ago. I prefer to think about the here and now. </p>
<p>Like I also said, you can't go wrong with either choice of UVA or UNC.</p>
<p>Globalist: The 1983 ranking above is quite relevant, particularly in light of the earlier comments made here (see quote above). That poster (PopiEph) believed that UVA was up there with Stanford (#1 in this ranking) 20 some years ago. As you can see, UVA didn't even make this list. UNC seems to share #15 with 4 other schools, including 2 Ivy's. If the Yalie truly did not know about UNC (and I still can't believe he wasn't kidding), then he must have gotten into Yale via legacy status, and we all know how that goes. ;)</p>
<p>Hahaha...you don't know jack. (LOL! I had to say that.)</p>
<p>US News rankings are based on many factors - graduation rates, school funding, etc. A higher ranking doesn't equate a better reputation. The most pertinent indicator from US News would be Peer Assessment. Give me those numbers from 1983, and then we can talk. There are schools out there that are ranked higher than others - Emory and Vanderbilt for example are ranked higher than Georgetown, but I think nationwide (even worldwide) more people know about Georgetown than Emory and Vanderbilt. </p>
<p>Also, believe me, the Yale guy wasn't kidding. Who told me that story? The Executive Director of the UVA Club who spoke to that Yale person.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I simply wondered if UVA had made any "strides" in recent years to curb that reputation, well-deserved or not.
[/QUOTE]
Easters, the week of parties that got UVa the "party school" reputation. The event was banned in 1982, but the reputation stuck.
[QUOTE]
As early as 1898, University students celebrated Easter Week or "Easters." This week-long diversion included elaborate dances and athletic games which helped the students shake the winter doldrums. It was also an occasion to celebrate Thomas Jefferson's birthday as it often fell near April 13. In the early days, the Easter week dances were chaperoned by faculty wives and "pledged"-?meaning no student could imbibe an alcoholic beverage after noon of the day of the party without violating the honor code.</p>
<p>Though Easters had grown tremendously in scale by the 1950s, students were, for the most part, still commended on their gentlemanly behavior. Easters continued to expand over the years, however, until thousands of students on the East Coast were making the pilgrimage to Charlottesville to celebrate what came to be known nationally as the "Best Party in the Country"--to the dismay of University administrators. With the increasing use and abuse of alcohol by students and the influx of "outsiders"--visiting students and townspeople--administrators became concerned about the University's reputation and its students' welfare. The mud slides and massive weekend parties in Madison Bowl were discontinued following the 1976 Easters. The last Easters at the University of Virginia was celebrated in the spring of 1982.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>I doubt UVA is even considered when Peterson's and others draft their lists of the top party schools these days. </p>
<p>Jack, all schools have student life officers who are concerned with the amount of partying of campus. Luckily, Charlottesville (a haven for musicians, artists, and the literati) has plenty of things going on. Those who love parties can go to them, but those who love concerts or galleries or really fantastic food are entertained as well.</p>
<p>Haha, it's pretty funny to read this in light of how kids in VA currently view UVA. If older high schoolers/college kids from my area were to list schools by party reputation, UVA would definitely not be up there ;) It might come in above William and Mary granted. </p>
<p>That's just "reputation" though. The thing is, on ANY college campus, just like ANY high school, no matter how expensive, prestigious, or polished, there will be people who drink and party and there will be people who have a more serious demeanor, and people in between. Whatever category you already fall into going off to college, I suspect you'll actively seek people who fit into that lifestyle anyway. UVA clearly has a great reputation as a solid academic school (as does UNC) so it's not like everyone who goes there parties all the time. Personally I wouldn't say that "partying" would be a very good deciding factor between UNC and UVA but that's just me. If anything, UNC does have a reputation of being more "spirited" and all, which lends itself to more of a partying reputation. But I think it's just that, a reputation. Not everyone who goes to UNC parties all the time, same for UVA, it's possible to avoid that scene at both place IMO without feeling like an outcast.</p>
<p>very true dean j, uva's party reputation is so overblown its comical to anyone who attends the university. don't be fooled by the 1970s and early 1980s animal house days of UVa, its not crazy. with the exception of foxfields, you won't find too many incredibly ridiculous days. Even game days usually are dead nights as people are tailgating from 9 am; by 6 pm everyones ready to pass out.</p>
<p>i love uva and all - but it isnt any break down the doors balls to the wall party school. you definately can have fun if you want to but its no wisconsin when it comes to the party scene. unless you're extremely intelligent i think you would have a difficult time living a hardcore party lifestyle (going out 4+ drinking/drug nights a week) while avoiding failing out.</p>
<p>the truth is, UVa wasn't really as academically oriented as many would like you to believe until it started fully admitting women in the 1970s. its undergraduate population then exploded, and it became a more serious university. Its partying days died soon after that as people became more interested in life after college, rather than life during college.</p>
<p>Wow, I went to Easters in 1981 - didn't know it was going to be one of the last.LOL ..my partying was a historical event ...
Don't remember much about it except LOTS of people ( I was one of those that came from a neighboring university).
May I add that as someone fairly familiar with the area - if you are an outdoor enthusiast UVA is in a beautiful area with some amazing hiking and views to die for. There is also skiing right at Wintergreen.</p>
<p>
[quote]
US News rankings are based on many factors - graduation rates, school funding, etc. A higher ranking doesn't equate a better reputation. The most pertinent indicator from US News would be Peer Assessment. Give me those numbers from 1983, and then we can talk. There are schools out there that are ranked higher than others - Emory and Vanderbilt for example are ranked higher than Georgetown, but I think nationwide (even worldwide) more people know about Georgetown than Emory and Vanderbilt.
[/quote]
Globalist, apparently you neglected to read my post above. The 1983 rankings were based ENTIRELY on peer assessment scores. The "modern" factors did not come into play until about 1989 or so. :p</p>
<p>I agree with Princedog about UVA's reputation; I've never thought of it as a party school. Is it true that UVA has Edgar Allan Poe's dormroom? I've heard it does, but it may be a rumor. :confused:</p>
<p>Those USNWR rankings from 1983 are certainly interesting, but they impeach themselves somewhat. After all, who didn't consider Illinois superior to MIT and Cal Tech? Or Indiana the equivalent of Columbia, Brown, and UNC? And at the top, as someone with relatively contemporaneous first- and close second-hand experience of several of those institutions, I can tell you that Stanford was definitely inferior to many of the others as an undergraduate school then, something that was openly acknowledged and fretted about at that institution. I wouldn't go so far as to call it second-rate, and the university as a whole was already one of the wonders of the world, but I can't imagine a knowledgeable person naming it as the top undergraduate college.</p>
<p>I was there. I stand by what I said before. I also agree that none of that matters now. Unless you are a hard-core tradition freak, UNC is, at worst, a close equivalent to UVa.</p>
<p>JHS: Whew. Make up your mind. In your post #30, you said, "In my day, it [UVA] would have been considered equivalent to Stanford, probably (Stanford's reputation has come up a lot, too), and maybe a half step above Duke (ditto). UNC was simply not on the map until 10-15 years ago." NOW you say that "Stanford was definitely inferior to to many of the others as an undergraduate school . . . wouldn't go so far as to call it second-rate . . ." So, based on that, I guess you're saying that UVA was "definitely inferior" 20 some years ago, too? </p>
<p>Well, one thing we can agree on here . . . "20 or 30 years ago very few people outside of Carolina would have considered UVA and UNC as equivalent undergraduate institutions." Yes, according to that ranking above, they certainly weren't comparable. I don't even see UVA up there, do you? I think this ranking also helps to dispute your ludicrous claim that "UNC was simply not on the map until 10-15 years ago." </p>
<p>I think you just need to give up at this point, and admit that your "relatively contemporaneous close second-hand experience" isn't as valuable/knowledgeable as you think. I'm sure the USNWR were probably canvassing folks more knowledgeable than you at the time (maybe even with first-hand experience?).</p>
<p>I agree with you JHS. College presidents' assessments and a school's reputation within the general public are not the same. Yeah, college presidents may have thought that Stanford was #1 in 1983, but ask anyone in the world to choose between Stanford and Harvard, and I bet most people would have picked Harvard if we were basing it on reputation alone.</p>
<p>If "peer assessment" was the only criteria used in 1983, maybe UNC just had more idle students (or professors) who had time to complete the surveys. Maybe the professors or students at the other schools were too busy teaching or studying or partying? Just a thought. :)</p>
<p>Why are we arguing about a school's reputation 20 years ago? For high school students applying to UVA and UNC this year, wouldn't it be better to be discussing the differences between both schools NOW? Just a thought.</p>
<p>^ Absolutely! I have been saying that for years. Who cares what the rankings were 20 years ago ? Who cares what they were 10 years ago for that matter ?</p>
<p>I agree.^ But . . . once someone brings it up (and that wasn't me), to correct the misconceptions and misinformation that will otherwise perpetuate on this board, and possibly elsewhere, is of value.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>My "relatively contemporaneous experience" related to the schools at the top of the list. I thought I made that clear. In, say, 1980, I had a lot of data points on all of them. I attended one of the those schools as an undergraduate, had many friends and relatives at a second, attended another as a graduate student while my sister was an undergraduate there, and lived with people who were or had been undergraduates at the same school and at the fourth of the top four schools on that list (which I knew pretty well because my college roommate's girlfriend and brother had been there, and the cousin to whom I was closest was on the faculty).</p></li>
<li><p>My earlier post #30 related to the situation when I and my friends and siblings and cousins were looking at colleges, in the early-to-mid-70s. And my mother was, in part, a college counselor. I didn't say no one liked UNC then. I said no one at my Northeast prep school knew anything about it (except basketball and the dreaded UNC "four corners" offense)* or cared to find out. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Certainly that changed over the next 10-15 years; maybe the USNWR rankings had an effect. But to convince me I was wrong, you would have to show me that prior to, say, 1980, UNC and UVa got about the same number of undergraduate applications from New York or Massachusetts. If that's true, I will buy you a nice dinner and consider myself schooled.</p>
<ul>
<li>80s joke: Q: Who was the only person to consistently hold Michael Jordan to under 13 points a game over the course of three seasons? A: Dean Smith.</li>
</ul>
<p>JHS: I don't really have time, energy, nor inclination to NOW go back 30+ years for you, and since I don't have the "relatively contemporaneous close second-hand experience" that you do, I wouldn't have access to that information. I'm not really sure why having applications from the NE (NY and MA, specifically) would elevate a school in any way or make it seem more valuable-- as it obviously seems to for you. If they did get more applications from that area, this was probably because parts of VA have always been considered Northeastern, rather than Southern (by those South of VA, anyway)--or at least Mid-Atlantic--so Northerners, in general, might have been more inclined to apply there. Also, UNC took less than 15% out-of-state at that time.</p>
<p>Dean J: Thanks for your answer. I only just now saw that. Yes, that would have been about the time I was visiting up there. I agree with you about all the other things there are to do on a college campus and in a college town. Certainly this is true (or should be) for most. Again, I was merely attempting to put in check what UVA was like 20+ years ago (at least, what its reputation was), since the trip down memory lane had already been launched. ;)</p>
<p>Wow....nothing like an old fashioned "spitting" contest....LOL.....</p>
<p>I don't think there will ever be a concensus between jack and 1sokkermom since both have their natural biases. I will admit upfront to my natural UNC bias so that my cards are fully on the table. I will try to state the differences we saw when visiting both schools, those seen and experienced by my son whose best friend from HS is at UVA (he was there twice the first semester) and from his friend/girlfriend who is from Virginia who also has a sister at UVA.</p>
<p>Academics: Today, I think anyone would have to be biased if they didn't think that academically the two schools are basically a wash and that any differences are based mostly on chosen fields of study. UNC has the stronger hard sciences, linguistics and cognitive sciences as well as a leading Religious Studies deparment (among others) while UVA is somewhat stronger in some of the pure liberal arts disciplines. That's not to say for example that UNC's history, sociology or English departments are second rate and in some cases these particular departments might be on par with each other.</p>
<p>Towns: For the most part Chapel Hill and UNC are so intertwined that one defines the other. Chapel Hill is more active and vibrant than Charlottesville and the proximity to campus (across the street) makes the goods and services offered more convenient. Chapel Hill was the second city chosen (after Cambridge) by Ralph Lauren for his new Rugby concept (Charlottesville was third) ...so much for the preppy label at either place though UVA "feels" a bit preppier (page out of J Crew) than UNC does, if that makes sense.</p>
<p>Social Life: To say that drinking and partying are not part of the social culture at both schools would be naive at best. The biggest difference between the two schools socially is that UVA is more like other more "Southern schools" (UGA, Ole Miss, USC) in that the Greek scene is much stronger and more important than at UNC and drives much of the partying and social interaction. This does not mean you have to be Greek just that many of the parties are given by the Greeks and open to all and weekend activities are based around Greek social calendars. My son's only real comment about the social scene at UVA was that there seemed to be more drinking there on the whole because that's all there was to do there. </p>
<p>Travel: RDU is served by more airlines, has far more direct flights and is a relatively inexpensive cab ride. Charlottesville is not quite as convenient and requires more "one-stop" flights with layovers depending on the part of the country you are traveling to/from.</p>
<p>As someone said earlier, you can't go wrong with either. As an OOS applicant the bar for admission will be higher at both. UVA does admit more OOS students and has roughly 31% OOS students compared to UNC's stated 18% which as jack has said is now probably closer to 20-21% with the new rules applied to OOS scholarship students.</p>
<p>If admitted,visit both while school is in session and if possible, do overnights at both. Try not to rush in and rush out so that you can get a feel for the "flavor" of the town and campus since your child hopefully will be spending the next four years there. Good luck.</p>
<p>Very good post eadad. UVA was my dream school as a high school student, but we couldn't afford the OOS tuition. I live in NC and have been on UNC campus frequently and have a DIL who graduated from there. I think you hit it on the mark with your descriptions.</p>