Personally, if folks want to play COVID roulette, have at, adn let Darwin decide. But one problem is that the consciously unvacinated are encouraging public health officials to call for 100% making indoors, when the science clearly shows that the vaccinated are ‘safe’; are lockdowns soon to follow?
No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells.
However, Pfizer and Moderna did perform confirmation tests (to ensure the vaccines work) using fetal cell lines. And Johnson & Johnson uses fetal cell lines in vaccine development, confirmation and production.
Okay. Thanks. So they don’t contain any, but the fact that they were used in testing apparently is the issue. I wonder how many other medicines, treatments, and vaccines that is also true of.
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J&J uses it in production but the other 2 don’t. Not sure how it’s used in production but not in the actual product? Fortunately, Moderna and Pfizer seems to offer a less problematic option.
Googling around, it appears that Shingles, rubella, and chickenpox vaccines also used fetal cells in testing phases. So those would also need to be avoided. I think if this sort of thinking becomes common, we will see resurgences of other diseases as well as continued Covid.
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A lot.
The confirmation tests that MRNA vaccines ran used HEK 293 cells. The HEK 293 cell line is from 1973, and we don’t know for sure if the fetal cells were from an abortion or miscarriage. Regardless, the original cells are long gone.
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So given that, it’s puzzling that the MRNA Covid vaccines being singled out for avoidance.
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Yes, puzzling.
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https://www.columbuscatholic.org/documents/2017/4/Vaccines%20and%20Alternatives.pdf is a table from a group opposed to abortion listing which vaccines use the cell lines they consider problematic. However, it is from 2017, so some entries are out of date (the most obvious one is that the Zostavax shingles vaccine is no longer available in the US, having been replaced by the Shingrix shingles vaccine which does not use any of those cell lines), and COVID-19 vaccines are not included.
Zostavax for shingles, which is problematic for those who avoid vaccines associated with an abortion, has been discontinued in the US because people want Shingrix instead. Shingrix does not have connection to an abortion.
Rubella vaccines could be a dilemma for those concerned about abortion but want to become pregnant themselves, since getting rubella while pregnant can cause death or severe damage to the fetus. (How many more fetuses would have died if there were no rubella vaccine?)
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I think the idea that vaccines produce better immunity is often put out there in the media but I don’t know if all the evidence supports that. I think when they say that they are relying heavily on antibody tests which measure circulating IgG levels which wane over time and may wane eventually with the vaccine, too. That might mean our immunity isn’t as strong but it might also mean our bodies no longer feel the threat of covid. However, if the threat came back our bodies can in most cases start producing antibodies again.
On the other hand, there has been some concern about long term immunity because coronaviruses don’t usually produce long lasting immunity…again makes you wonder if boosters might be necessary in a couple of years. But then there was that article from about the plasma cells in bone marrow suggesting long-lasting immunity…
And circulating antibodies are only one part of immunity. There’s a test available now for T-cells, but it’s expensive so I don’t think it’s done very often. I haven’t been able to justify the $200 it would probably cost, but I would love to have that done. It’s possible that people who had covid and never produced antibodies possibly had a robust T-cell response. Their T-cells might work the same way again if they were to be exposed and have to fight off the virus again.
At least one study showed antibodies are higher in vaccinated people after completing a two vaccine series. So people are using that as evidence that vaccines produce better immunity. But antibodies are even higher for a person who had the virus and gets one shot. They actually did not go any higher with a second shot. So So I think if someone had a natural infection and was exposed again, like @laralei ’s family members, they probably have very strong immunity against infection.
There were interesting observational studies on reinfection done with Cleveland Clinic frontline healthcare workers and another very big one done in Denmark. I think the Denmark study showed 80% protection in people under 65 but only 50% in people over 65. Assessment of protection against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 among 4 million PCR-tested individuals in Denmark in 2020: a population-level observational study - The Lancet
Not puzzling in the least, given the very public nature of this pandemic and this vaccine, including the incessant press coverage. Most vaccine decisions are reached w/o such drama and w/o a world-wide crisis. Finally, some people simply have no choice but to vaccinate against certain diseases; state health departments might mandate it for school enrollment, etc.
Perhaps because the country is a lot more divided now and misinformation/disinformation spreads farther and faster than a wildfire?
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I think there is very small number of people who take a hardline and refuse any vaccine (and possibly other types of medical treatments) developed with the help of fetal cell lines. By far, most people with concerns about fetal cell line experimentation weigh their objections against the risks, consider the common good, and eventually get those vaccines because they love their children and have no better choices.
I would venture that there are a lot more people out there who are simply anti-vaxxers who avoid all vaccines just because they object to vaccination in general for whatever reason. I recently met someone who never vaccinated their teen child with any vaccines, but she got herself the covid shot. I got the impression that she thought vaccines are just unhealthy, or whatever.
Basically, I think it’s somewhat misled for the purpose of vaccine reluctance to over-focus on the small number people who are concerned about fetal cell line use and thoughtfully consider the best course, in terms of public health. Perhaps it’s better to focus on misinformation, fear, preparation for eventual side effects so people feel empowered to get the vaccine, etc.
The fetal cell line issue is actually a problem that can be solved rather quickly if anyone was interested in seriously addressing it, perhaps by simply developing vaccines without testing them on fetal cells…like maybe Pfizer or Moderna could develop a new covid vaccine to target the new variants and just not test it on HEK293 and use another less morally problematic cell line instead. And, of course the FDA-part would be complicated, but couldn’t some organization import vaccines without the fetal cell line connection? They have them in other countries.
Well, I’m not Catholic, so don’t have a dog in that fight. 
Just stating how my DH basically looks at it. I know of a few families in his congregation who are like us, some have gotten the vaccine, some don’t plan to.
At the end of the day, everyone has to make their own choice and live with it.
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Except people who choose to not get vaccinated put others at risk, especially those who can’t be vaccinated (kids, some immune compromised people), and those who are vaccinated but don’t develop antibodies. That is why the unvaccinated should be practicing safe behaviors including masking and social distancing both indoors and out…but it seems in many areas of the country this isn’t happening.
The other risk is that the more unvaccinated people there are the greater the risk that additional variants will develop.
I read a quote today something like ‘if you don’t get vaxxed, the virus is going to vax you’. Isn’t that the truth.
Meanwhile while the virus burns thru the unvaccinated, the rest of us are waiting to get our lives back.
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From the other side.
Those that I know that have no intention of getting vaccinated aren’t refusing because of the bs about: fetal cells, religious reasons, magnetic field acquisition, transistors & microchips… seriously, all of this is laughable.
Mostly, they’ve either had it or are young and healthy enough they don’t fear dying of it, and are skeptical of the argument that we’ll all have to take a yearly dose of Pfizer to avoid an apocalypse of more and more deadly variants. Can’t blame them because I feel exactly the same.
Not going to link to anything that might be considered clickbait but there are no end of news pieces reporting correctly as to where the vaccine reluctance really lives. Don’t know that much of it makes it to FB, but…
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Unless you have the government mandate forced vaccinations, you are not going to get everyone to volunteer for it. It’s not going to happen. Quite frankly, trying to guilt people into anything usually tends to backfire.
So unfortunately, anyone who worries about being exposed is going to have to continue to be vigilant. Wear masks, avoid large crowds, don’t socialize with those who haven’t had the vaccine.
My issue is with those who take no precautions and then get OTHERS sick.
Too many unvaccinated people have the view that it’s everyone else who needs to take precautions, not them. They feel zero responsibility-ZERO-to behave in a way that will decrease the risk for others who come into contact with them. It’s just not their problem.
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Those I know who refuse to get vaccinated buy into pretty much everything “that side” promotes. BIL told H, “Tell me how you feel about it in 20 years when you grow a third arm.”
Many kids at the high school where I work, esp those heading to college, were eager to get vaxed so life could return to normal for them. They knew they weren’t really at risk, but they wanted “life” to return. Some of these I’ve talked with are quite mad with those who refuse.
I also know one who can’t get vaxed due to allergies. He’s a college student now and easily got a medical exemption since he had a bad reaction to another vax. His family worries about what will happen if he gets Covid, but there isn’t anything else they can do because they don’t want to tell him he can’t go places and do things. They aren’t worried about him dying TBH, but he’s an athlete and they’ve seen my long hauler with his issues.
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