The only cruise I ever took was on NCL in their Haven area. We loved it. But Because of COVID and what occurred with ships being locked out of ports I don’t think I’ll ever cruise again. However if I did it would be on NCL. Very impressed by them pursuing this lawsuit.
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We see this even within the healthcare profession, as the most highly vaccinated group is also the most educated: physicians.
Regarding the US’s vax rate, we have to account for the number of under-12’s in this country relative to those other countries. The US has a younger median age than many other developed nations (barring Israel) and that will push down the overall vax rate. Best to compare the percentage of eligible who are actually vaccinated. Is that available somewhere?
Someone should tip off Politico that the Disney Dream Ship is not owned by Norwegian Cruise Lines.
Not exactly. We had prior examples. SARS and MERS are spread by airborne transmission. Also coronaviruses that cause the common cold can be spread by airborne transmission. It had to be considered early on.
Transmission of common human coronaviruses
Common human coronaviruses usually spread from an infected person to others through
- the air by coughing and sneezing
- close personal contact, like touching or shaking hands
- touching an object or surface with the virus on it, then touching your mouth, nose, or eyes before washing your hands
It was based on changing information and there is a lot more nuance to what he said about changing his tune on masks than you are claiming:
*they did not have any idea that asymptomatic people could transmit the disease
*they did not initially understand that the disease is primarily transmitted in droplets big enough to be trapped by surgical masks.
Covid19 “behaves” differently from most of the coronaviruses scientists were previously familiar with. The learning curve on this one was huge, and I think, remarkably fast.
Read the entirety of Fauci’s statements on changing guidance on masking. At no time did he admit that he lied.
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He didn’t need to admit he lied. He lied. He said masks aren’t necessary, you don’t need to wear them because he was worried that the general public would run out and buy them up and he wanted them for the doctors. He admitted that was the concern/messaging discussed during task force meetings. During an interview with 60 Minutes Fauci says "there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask,” though adds he’s not “against masks,” but worried about health care providers and sick people “needing them,” and says masks can lead to “unintended consequences” such as people touching their face when they fiddle with their mask. He wasn’t alone either, the Surgeon General was practically yelling at people not to wear masks, saying that you could actually get sicker if you wore them.
Yet the countries that dealt with SARS never stopped masking.
But a month earlier he said something different.
Coronavirus is predominantly spread in the air from humans to humans. "
Masks. The only people who need masks are those who are already infected to keep from exposing others. The masks sold at drugstores aren’t even good enough to truly protect anyone, Fauci said.
“If you look at the masks that you buy in a drug store, the leakage around that doesn’t really do much to protect you,” he said. “People start saying, ‘Should I start wearing a mask?’ Now, in the United States, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to wear a mask.”
Fauci doesn’t want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is “just minuscule.”
So he said transmission is airborne but we still don’t need to wear masks.
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Totally agree that everyone needs to remain humble, given the unique aspects of this particular virus.
Fauci sounded deliberate and authoritative in that 60-Minutes interview back in March 2020, and the message was clear: People should not be wearing masks because they don’t provide you with sufficient protection. LePoppet even questioned him again: “Are you sure? Because people are listening to this.”
So when walking back such a statement, Fauci simply should have provided a teachable moment in how scientists and policy makers are sometimes hit with hard facts that contradict the earlier prevailing wisdom. Fauci, however, (and sorry but this did sound a tad petulant on his part) instead insisted that “this is no contradiction - the circumstances changed.” Fauci: Mask Advice Was Because of Doctors' Shortages From the Start
What circumstances, exactly? The virus was the virus; their knowledge and understanding was evolving, to be sure. But the only circumstance that actually changed was the availability of PPE.
Unfortunately, the herd immunity issue didn’t rebuild trust (to put it mildly). Nor did his apparently “evolving” views about the possibility of a lab leak or the possible connection to gain-of-function research.
I like Dr. Fauci but I think he does have genuine credibility problems. It’s crucial not to have even the appearance of shilling or having ulterior motives or undisclosed interests if you are the face of the way forward in this pandemic. Repeatedly having to say that your statements or e-mails are being taken out of context doesn’t help dispel suspicion.
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You’re picking phrases of what he said to quote. Read the entire statement–including the phrase “right now”. Again, the information he originally shared was consistent with what we knew about coronaviruses at that time. If they had been strictly airborne (the not-trapped-in-droplets definition of airborne) then the surgical masks wouldn’t do much good because the virus alone is too small to be trapped by the fibers in the surgical masks. Remember when most people were disinfecting everything they were going to touch? Not only did we not understand that the virus was transmitted in droplets, we thought the primary mode of transmission was from physical contact. In those contexts, his mask advice was logical.
His statements were consistent with what the WHO was telling everyone as well; he was hardly the only public health scientist who got got it wrong initially. At that time there was consensus among the majority of scientists around the world.
Those countries did not start wearing masks during the SARS outbreak. Mask wearing in public had been their cultural norm for decades.
Truncated statements taken out of context give the appearance Fauci intentionally lied. He and virtually every other scientist got the info on coronavirus transmission wrong. Look back at published research–Fauci’s recommendation on masking did an about-face in conjunction with published research about asymptomatic and droplet transmission.
No, that was not the only circumstance that changed. Understanding of the virus had evolved significantly in just a few weeks.
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I’m sorry, but the same people who won’t trust Fauci because “he lied to them”, have been swallowing obvious lies left and right from politicians, conspiracy theorists, and other assorted scum of the earth.
So no, I don’t buy that.
They don’t trust Fauci because Fauci is not one the leaders in which they believe, or a follower of such.
If a person continues to trust somebody who said that COVID is no worse than the flu, and that it will be over by Spring (of 2020), and then acts as though they never said such a thing, but also say that they don’t trust Fauci because of the mask thing, I call bull.
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They understood that the virus was transmitted in droplets. Here is the WHO’s own literature from March 2020: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update-20-epi-win-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=5e0b2d74_2
Specifically: “The spread of Covid-19 from person-to-person is being driven by droplet transmission - the virus is carried in the small droplets that emerge from the noses or mouth, when a person with Covid-19 speaks, exhales, coughs or sneezes.”
By the way, businesses and institutions are still disinfecting surfaces.
And, remember that choir? A choir decided to go ahead with rehearsal. Now dozens of members have COVID-19 and two are dead This was first reported in late March. We in my household remember the story very well and, being former choir members ourselves, knew exactly how transmission had happened.
The definition of “circumstance” is: A fact or condition connected with or relevant to an event or action. It’s an external thing (ie PPE availability). Not an internal thing (ie someone’s own understanding about how the virus transmits). One circumstance changed and that was PPE. That’s what Fauci was referring to.
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You’re helping to prove my point. See the date on that publication? March 27.
March 7: Fauci 60 minutes interview
March 27: WHO updates transmission information
March 31: Fauci says mask wearing under serious consideration.
April 3: CDC updates guidance on mask wearing. Fauci statements follow CDC guidance.
Two of those choir members were my neighbors, so yes, I remember. Since the choir practice happened on the last day I was allowed on my campus, I also remember the date–March 10. By mid March my neighbors were dead. So, no in my area, it was not first reported in late March.
Transmission of viruses by inhalation is frequently by aerosolized virus particles, rather than particles carried on droplets which are significantly larger. The weave on surgical, and homemade cloth, masks is too small to trap an aerosolized virus. At the time of the choir superspreader event, scientists still did not understand the mechanics of Covid19 transmission although this event was important in the evolution of that understanding.
Circumstance, situation, event…whatever…the available information changed.
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It was always about the PPE supply:
"Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said he would “lean towards” recommending that the general public wear face masks “if we do not have the problem of taking away masks from the health care workers who need them.””
CDC recommended homemade cloth masks a few days later.
As the CNN article points out, the advice was not based on scientific data but a hope to put a dent in the rapid spread of the virus and a potential conclusion of asymptomatic spread. “Throughout the pandemic so far, the World Health Organization and US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have advised against the general public’s use of masks unless they are already sick.”
This NPR article suggests that CDC finally decided to follow the lead of other countries, despite advice from WHO: CDC Now Recommends Americans Voluntarily Wear Cloth Masks In Public : Coronavirus Updates : NPR
WHO may have made tweaks to their literature in March of 2020, but nothing about transmission really changed from the prior month, as we know from remarks of the director:
"It’s when each and every individual becomes part of the containment strategy that we can succeed. That’s why reaching out to the public directly and telling them the precautions they should take.
Clean your hands regularly, either with alcohol-based rub or soap and water.
Keep your distance from someone who is coughing or sneezing.
And when you cough or sneeze, cover your mouth and nose with a tissue or your elbow."
This isn’t really any different advice from the following month.
What terrible news that must have been for you and your neighbors! We were shocked, and we live many states away!
I get what you are saying and appreciate your detailed distinction. It make sense. This was recognized as a respiratory virus from the outset, and SARS Coronaviruses are known to take an aerosol route (per Wiki). This virus transmission is distinct, however, as it primarily transmits per droplets (albeit airborne as well). Knowledge and understanding about all this evolved over a few weeks time.
Here’s the problem: Fauci’s comments are exactly backwards from what you are saying. He said that aerosols justified cloth masks on March 31 but droplets weren’t worth using masks for three weeks earlier on 60 Minutes. Compare:
March 31, in mentioning an upcoming discussion about cloth masks: “Particularly now that we’re getting some inklings that there’s transmission of infection from an asymptomatic person who is not coughing, who is not sneezing, who just appears well. Well, then how do you think that’s happening?” Fauci said. "It very well could be aerosol. Maybe not aerosol, you know, that goes on for hours. But even the slight aerosol in which you’re talking to somebody. If that’s the case, we should at least look at the data and try to make a decision about that.”
March 8 Interview on 60 Minutes:
“When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.”
So did Fauci not know what he was talking about? Or is he just making up stuff to deflect from other reasons, such as PPE availability, or even internal conflict within the health policy bodies over whether to follow WHO or other countries that were already requiring/encouraging masking? Seriously, his comments just don’t sound like they are on the up-and-up.
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Please move on from any discussion about whether Fauci lied. You’re beating a dead horse at this point.
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What I said was about the primary mode of transmission. Yes, airborne transmission is always one of the mechanisms for all these viruses to spread, but none of the other ones is aerosolized so it can linger in the air for hours. The other viruses form larger droplets and then quickly fall to the ground.
There is nothing in Terms of Service that says you need to respond to every post. There is something that says this is not a debating society. Please keep that in mind.
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Which is why my son’s in-laws in Hong Kong sent us masks back when this all started. Anyone who was paying any attention knew that they were a good idea.
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Those who refuse to let go of the “Fauci lied” idea are many of the same who will not let go of the “it’s just a flu” untruth and DO accept what they former US head of state told them to believe.
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I wish people could let go of the past (learn from it, but don’t dwell on it) and use what we know now to do best for the future. There’s so much more data out there now and it’s still coming in. Pay attention to that (carefully looking at sources!) to make decisions. If you see something, google it to look for more than one source and make sure you check the fact check section to see if it shows up there too. No sense believing the snake oil salesman eager to scam for money or the person living in the basement making up stories to get their jollies, laughing at the numbers they can con.
Armchair quarterbacking does nothing, esp when people are fixated on it refusing to move past it.
My mind is musing that our country ought to have far more Amish types based upon the numbers who don’t trust science or modern things.
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I thought I was paying attention and I remember with disappointment in myself how I scoffed inside when I saw people on my plane dc-nyc with masks on. Not flat surgical masks but serious looking things, made me think of Hanibal Lecter. February 22, 2020. I had known about a virus in China since early January, I paid attention, and still associated these masks to scary films, not health.
I only decided to get masks in March and at that point it was too late.
In terms of transmission:
In actual medical terminology, “airborne” and “droplet spread” which can also occur “in the air” are not the same thing. Airborne spread is many more times contagious than droplet, even though they are both spread via the respiratory system and they both can occur “through the air”. Droplet spread can become more contagious than is usual during procedures that cause the aerolization of the droplets (such as intubation) and in circumstances where people are close together and shouting or singing or playing certain musical instruments.
I’ve always thought that the terminology is unfortunate and confusing at best.
So in the initial months of the pandemic, doctors and other scientists stated that the virus was not airborne, because it was believed to be a droplet transmission virus. No one was lying.
I’m still not clear if this virus is actually a true airborne virus vs. droplet. Or was it droplet initially but with the mutations has it now become a true airborne virus, or have experts just given in to the confusion and begun using the terminology that people understand and can better receive?
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Right now I’m not sure how an unapproved vaccine can be mandated by anyone.
And when the “emergency” of covid will end (along with the “emergency powers” of some power hungry politicians. It’s not just Fauci backtracking on his advice but the hypocrisy that is so widespread among leaders and media .
Fauci has had plenty of detractors in the medical field all along the way also. Everything was politicized from not getting the vaccine until after the election to the obvious leaders who flouted all the mask mandates while locking people in their homes. Cuomo got an award while sending covid patients to nursing homes. I can’t stand the hypocrisy.
In the meantime though I try to keep up on the medical news and encourage people to get the vaccine (especially now with the variants).
It absolutely should not be politicized. And it still is–one event is a party or a peaceful protest and the next is suddenly a “super spreader” event. I personally see large groups of unmasked people and wonder how many got sick–tell me some actual useful information but it never seems to appear.
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