Right, and what’s the vax rates for those local communities? (Those folks choose to play the covid roulette wheel and win a hospital stay and vent if their number comes up.)
Heck, I continue to read about health care workers (unions?) pushing back on vax mandates.
I’ll answer you! My kids already had Covid. No symptoms. Confirmed T-Cell immunity. As a family, we’ve considered the risk/benefit analysis and have decided the risks from the vaccine (side effects, death) are not worth it for our kids.
As far as masking, the harms done to children’s development will take years to uncover. The education loss alone may be devastating. Cloth masks do not provide enough protection to warrant the masking of healthy kids to alleviate the small risk they present to adults who have had the choice to be vaccinated.
Kids have almost none of the risk and carry all of the burden. I believe we will look back in disgust at what we’re doing to our children.
I believe we will look back in disgust at all those who chose not to vaccinate, esp politicians and influential others who encouraged that side.
In beginning Covid times, not much was known so there were ample, “can’t really predict things” mistakes. Now so much is known with data bearing it out.
Glad they caught him. Hope he loses his license and gets a huge fine along with any jail time.
I’m really sorry to hear about your MIL. I’ve been reading this forum for a long time and following your posts. You’re one of my favorite posters on CC.
I have had similar experiences with family / friends. On the one hand, sure, I wasn’t anxious to get to the front of the line on something that had to be developed quickly. But I listened to the experts, because what else am I to do? If I were to develop cancer, I’d go where I need to go and listen to … the experts. At some point, we all have to take leaps of faith. I’m in no position to argue with or second guess a virologist or immunologist. None. I haven’t the qualifications.
Where my frustration kicks in is the politicization of vaccines (along with everything else) and resulting nonsense.
“Well if the vaccine works, you shouldn’t care if I don’t get it because if I get COVID I won’t be able to get you sick.”
“This has nothing to do with a virus and everything to do with control.”
“Microchips”
“Bill Gates is evil and is only pushing the vax to make more money.”
“Your missed vacation has nothing to do with me not being vaccinated.”
There are two key elements that connect all these interactions: (1) stupidity and (2) arrogance/lack of humility. I can handle either of those vices in a person; but I can’t handle both.
You’re 100% right; the data is bearing it out. There are people on both sides that just do not care to see it and think their way is the ONLY way. 
Not sure I understand your point about natural immunity. Should we have take that approach with polio, small pox, etc.?
At the end of the day, it’s hard to avoid other people and when a virus is running rampant, vaccines help tamp it down as part of a process, sometimes long, to get rid of the thing and keep it from mutating.
Your anecdotal experience is very consistent with mine fwiw.
Of course it is not just your kids who may be impacted by your decision.
Dr Makary evidently cannot read data to save his, or other persons’ lives. He also seems to either lack the ability to understand probabilities and odds rations, or he is just another attention-seeking celebrity wannabe, who is knowingly misleading the public, just to be interviewed.
Oh, he is a surgeon, NOT a virologist or an immunobiologist. He probably has not learned any more than introductory courses in either, and those were from 20 years ago. He should keep to what he knows - cutting people open, and putting them back together again.
The calculations that he is quoting are, again, the result of some idiot’s inability to calculate odd ratios.
Basically, they calculated the percentage of recovered people who were reinfected and compared that to the percentage of vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections.
The problem is that this is not how you calculated the chances of infection.
First, there were 6.21 times as many vaccinated people as there were recovered people. That means that vaccinated people were already 6.21 times more likely to be exposed to a contagious individual.
So that already explains why vaccinated people were 6.7 times more likely to be infected than recovered people.
Second, many of the recovered people were also vaccinated, so we’re not actually talking about there being 835,000 people who were immune only because of having been sick - many of them were vaccinated too. So the number of those who were just recovered is low.
Finally, this model is based on the false assumption that everybody in Israel is equally exposed, and that vaccinated and recovered people are randomly and normally distributed in the population.
They are not.
In fact, the recovered are highly clumped in the ultraorthodox community. As of the data on which Dr Makary is basing his claims, the Delta variant had not yet started to spread in this community.
That means that the actual proportion of recovered, unvaccinated people who had been exposed to the Delta variant was far lower than 8.7%, which is their percent of the population.
That means that, not only does he not understand what he’s talking about, he is also citing people who do not know the basics of epidemiology.
He also does not, evidently, actually read research on the topic:
Creekland I very much appreciate your posts and personally agree with the vast majority of your views on Covid. Family and I took first possible a available appt for a vax.
I don’t personally think currently “so much is known” or being communicated. Yes clearly the vax works and is saving countless lives. However…
We don’t really know how effective our vaccines are versus current variants (and JJ seems ineffective although no one says it). We don’t know if the now recommended boosters 8 months out are to avoid serious illness and hospitalization or just to diminish spread via asymptotic illness. How effective and for how long will the boosters last. We don’t know if twice vaccinated and then boostered will we still need to wear masks indoors. We don’t know if 8 months is the optimal time for boosters (no FDA reviewed data) and if it varies by vaccine. We don’t know how people who have been infected and then vaccinated immune systems have responded and if a booster makes sense. There is so much we don’t know and much of it is understandable as the situation constantly evolves and changes.
Will I likely get a booster…probably. That said I will certainly want to know more then has been offered so far.
We are getting a lot of recommendations, very little data and a global caveat that you should talk to your doctor. My doctor doesn’t have data either.
I don’t blame anyone or believe in any of the nonsense conspiracies I just honestly don’t know what the governments advice is given my vaccinated status and healthy status.
It’s a moving target at best and currently ambiguous for those of us who jumped at the first chance to get vaxed.
I was with my nephew and niece all weekend. Nice ordinary ACTIVE kids, 10 and 13. Neither of them has ANY issue with wearing masks or taking other precautions to protect themselves and others. Their parents have done an excellent job of teaching them about civic responsibility. I’m proud of the whole family. Ashamed of a lot of others, though.
That’s why I don’t get the outrage about masks. It is a low-cost, easy precaution. Even kids much younger than those you mentioned quickly learn to wear masks with minimal disruption to their lives. So I just don’t get claims like this, especially from people who won’t vaccinate their children:
If these yet to be uncovered developmental harms exist, they pale in comparison to the harms done by irresponsible people who refuse to take even the simplest and most cost effective preventive measures to protect themselves, their children, and others.
I don’t disagree with the “fog of covid” thrust of your post. We are literally all part of a global lab experiment to eradicate or limit covid-19.
However, it is clear as day that the more folks that were vaccinated, the less chance of there being enough hosts for mutations to develop to any large degree. The politicization of basic things like mask-wearing and social distancing, coupled with active disinformation/misinformation about vaccines, allows a fertile breeding ground for both regionalized spread and mutations.
A few weeks ago, another poster here said, effectively: “well, mutations could still come through via travel/immigration”, or words to that effect. My response then, as now, is that masking wearing, social distancing, and vaccinations would mean the virus, in any of its variants, would have no place to go.
Because of the crass politics that has been made of covid, many have died and/or suffered, and we continue to be threatened by this. And we will until folks mask, distance, and/or vaccinate, preferably all three.
Folks who don’t do this? Get over being so selfish and think about others for a change. It’s because of you that we are going to be in this for some time to come.
And that sucks for the rest of us and our families. But that’s what happens when selfishness, ignorance, and/or politics are interjected into something so basic.
Here’s a fair trade for those who, inanely, complain their “freedom” is being taken away by these so very basic protections: go without clothes instead of failing to mask or socially distancing. What’s the difference between the two? Isn’t “being forced to wear clothes” an affront to your “freedom”?
Some of this “the children are suffering” line of defense smacks of people working too hard and it comes off a little disingenuous.
Here’s an idea. If you’re convinced children are suffering untold harm from masks, social isolation, etc., or that we “don’t know”, then do your part to help make this go away. We were almost there from social distancing and vaccines. This crowd of people who stubbornly jam everything into contrived concepts of liberty denied are the culprit here. I agree with another poster that history will judge this folks harshly. I think that will be the case on a number of fronts. I myself have not yet forgotten how many people close to me revealed a side of themselves I didn’t know was there.
Agreed and more then willing to do my (our) part. My fear is as the “fog” as you accurately put it gets thicker it serves to empower and deepen the resolve of those who are reluctant.
We have people who believe Bill Gates is going Honey I shrunk the Kids on them and will never get the joke. The CDC recommending boosters with little data and or specificity however hurts the likelihood that those who are still approachable but unvaccinated will resist.
Like everyone I just want to see this behind us!
FWIW, “so much is known” is not at all the same as “everything is known.” For sure there is still a lot we are learning about Covid, how it operates, why it affects some so horribly and others not much (what’s the difference between the two people), and if there are better treatments out there (still in studies from those on the front lines).
But what we do know is vaccines better our odds. It strongly alluded to that in trials and is a certainty with millions vaxed. Odds are just that. They won’t work for everyone, but in masses, the trend is strong.
As I said before, everyone on this planet is in this experiment like it or not. In our country most of us have options to choose the side that gives us better odds or not. The first is the Test group. The second is the Control group.
Interestingly enough when many people are in experiments they hope to be in the Test group and not the Control group.
The experiment isn’t over. As Covid changes or more is learned, we all will have to continue to make choices, esp as life goes on. My choices will be solidly based upon the data according to who I am (age, date of last vax and which vax, and more) knowing that will give me my best odds.
Most of us make choices in other things in life as more options are out there too. We choose cars, diets, lifestyles, and more - usually trying to give us the best we can get.
Pfizer submitted data re: booster shots to the FDA within the last couple of days. That, plus Delta infection rates in Israel, are driving the booster for all recommendation.
I may have missed it but I haven’t seen anything from the FDA in terms of efficacy post booster, on what basis 8 months is recommended, or analysis of any potential side effects of the booster with and without having been infected. What happened data wise was reviewed from last weeks advice when boosters were recommended only for immune compromised vs now.
I appreciate some of this might not be available but then guidance should include as much detail as possible.
This is representative of what I have been able to read to far…
Not a lot of substance.
I agree that what we are doing to kids is horrible - all because too many people are not caring about anyone else but themselves. Meaning…they are not getting vaccinated to protect others, not wearing masks to protect others, not tamping this down last year to protect others. The next generations will be paying for this for years to come on many levels. And as more variants continue to pop up, kids will be carrying more risk (as we are currently seeing).