Vaccine reluctance & General COVID Discussion

This isn’t surprising. Diabetes and Hypertension are major markers for heightened risk of CKD and of course they also increase your risk of a bad Covid outcome, all else equal.

There is nothing to suggest that the US is taking more than their fair share right now. China has their own set of vaccines, Russia theirs. The US has donated (read paid for) over 500 million vaccine doses…and as roycroftmom points out, WHO is struggling to get those where they need to go.

Lastly, the US underwrote (to a significant degree) the development of a number of these vaccines including two on the market in the US…Moderna and JNJ, and AZ’s which is on the market in many other countries. The US has done more for covid global vaccine development and distribution than any other country, by far.

I agree that there will continue to be mutations, and we will be dealing with covid for the rest of time. I also agree with roycroftmom that it will take decades to vaccinate the world against covid. Meanwhile we need more and better testing and treatments to manage this disease (while trying to vaccinate as many people as possible).

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Quoting from the WHO’s website:

*The problem

Safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines were developed in record time. But the virus is moving faster than the global distribution of vaccines. The vast majority have been administered in high- and upper-middle-income countries, mostly in 10 countries alone. If these doses had been distributed equitably, they would have been enough to cover all health workers and older people globally.

The global failure to share vaccines equitably is taking its toll on some of the world’s poorest and most vulnerable people. New variants of concern mean that the risks of infection have increased in all countries for people who are not yet protected by vaccination.

*The solution

There are enough doses of vaccines globally to drive down transmission and save many lives, if they go to the people who need them most around the world. Worldwide access to COVID-19 vaccines offers the best hope for slowing the coronavirus pandemic, saving lives, and securing a global economic recovery.

To stop the pandemic, we need to vaccinate at least 40% of people in every country by the end of 2021, and at least 70% by the first half of 2022.

Not sure personal opinion, abeit throughtful and informed, is the relevant guidance in this matter. If there is no medical need for boosters, then the resource is better off being applied elsewhere.

There is a second factor that needs to be included when the percent of vaccinated people is pretty high. When a very high percent are vaccinated, even if their chances of being hospitalized or much lower than unvaccinated, they will be a relatively high percent of the hospitalized.

So 65% of all CT residents, and 77% of all adults are vaccinated.

That means that a vaccinated adult is 3.3X as likely to be exposed to an infected person as an unvaccinated person.

If, say 1/4 (25%) of all hospitalized adults are vaccinated, that would mean that the chances of a vaccinated person being hospitalized is around 1/10 that of an unvaccinated person.

In LA county, 67% of all adults are vaccinated. That means that a vaccinated adults is 2X as likely to be exposed as an unvaccinated person.

So, if a vaccinated person has 1/10 the chances of being hospitalized as an unvaccinated person, that would mean that only 1/6 (or 17%) of all hospitalized cases will be vaccinated. It is 12%, so that’s even better.

If, instead of being 91% effective, as it is with a mask, vaccination is, as it seems, only about 80% effective without a mask, that would mean that, in Michigan, with a 61% adult vaccination rate, a vaccinated adult has a 1.56X chance of being exposed, so if they are 25% of all hospitalized cases, or 1/3 as likely to be hospitalized, that would indicate around 79% protection.

As I wrote - for the delta variant, the masks help bring down exposure, and thus allow the vaccine to provide a higher rate of protection. So the benefits that vaccination provides to a masked person are, proportionately, higher than the benefits that the vaccine provides to an unmasked person.

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Ask the WHO how they are doing in distributing the 500M+ vaccines they have received from the US, as well as the vaccines donated by other countries.

It is very very difficult to distribute vaccines to third world countries for a whole host of reasons. Again, it will take decades, at least based on historical vaccine distribution efforts.

What is your proposed solution? Are you saying the US should donate more doses to WHO, when they haven’t even dented the 500M we already sent? Should we undertake global vaccine distribution on our own? Etc?

There is clearly a medical need for boosters. So much so, that the term booster is incorrect. For example, it has become clear that Pfizer’s product requires 3 doses, with none of them considered a booster.

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The goal of vaccinating 40% of the world’s population by the end of the year is too unrealistic to consider serious. Anyone with experience in third world aid knows that, and that the WHO is once again just posturing politically.

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For reference, the WHO launched a worldwide polio eradication campaign In 1988 ( almost 30 years after the US and other developed countries had their own vaccine campaigns). It was finally concluded in 2018 with a declaration of eradication.

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Here are stats for current COVID patients in all Northern Light Health hospitals in Maine. It’s pretty clear the vaccines are working well. How is there any argument at all? I really feel like we’re in the Teilight Zone.

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That is not entirely clear. It is clear from studies that, in terms of antibody levels, Pfizer * 3 > Pfizer * 2 (and J&J * 2 > J&J * 1). But what antibody level is “enough”, and which should be the basis of dosage recommendations for these vaccines?

The argument for +1 dose is probably strongest for J&J, since the 1-dose antibody level is relatively low, but the 2-dose antibody level is quite high.

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Some of the best data is coming from Israel, and what they are experiencing. Not only is there the question of number of antibodies and dosing, we need to figure out the best timing between doses.

I am sure the FDA is working on this, but it takes time, and well, FDA is going to be down some critical people soon. It would help if a permanent FDA commissioner is named too, seems the administration is not going to nominate the interim director for the job.

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And the problem for many states is that they have run out of time, with hospitals overwhelmed and patients dying in the corridors. An emergency use authorization should be just that-a decision that another booster dose does no harm, and might help alleviate, an ongoing crisis. Will it be the perfect combination of timing and dosage to optimize the efficacy? Probably not, but the first standard is, do no harm, and try something that will stem the losses now. The FDA has enough for that decision.

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Agreed. The good news is that in some locales it is looking like Delta has peaked. Regarding the FDA it’s hard to know what all the issues are, but having an interim director who is not going to be nominated for the job is likely a problem…how effectual can be she be advocating with the administration and CDC, and how effectual can she be leading FDA staff?

This contradicts the experts in the NYT article. Furthermore, apparently the promising of the “booster” (so called by the White House’s Covid-19 response coordinator) by the administration and the acting head of the FDA before the agency has even had a chance to review such for efficacy and safety contradicts the FDA’s normal review process. Other experts agree:
“This process has been the reverse of what we would normally expect in vaccine policy,” with the administration announcing plans based on a certain outcome before regulators can complete their review, said Jason L. Schwartz, an associate professor of health policy at the Yale School of Public Health. “That has made it even more complicated and confusing for the public.”

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Much of the public is watching other countries using boosters and remain confused as to why we aren’t.

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Unless Pfizer’s dosing is changed and/or we learn more about optimal dose spacing, 3 shots are likely to be required for antibody development…based on what we are seeing in Israel with their Delta wave. Time will tell how it all plays out.

Most of what you wrote supports why two highly seasoned FDA vaccine staffers are leaving the agency over the next two months.

I have no dog in this fight. I mentioned two reasons why US citizens shouldn’t place fear and/or greed ahead of science. Vaccine accessibility is a public health issue on a global scale. The other reason, of course, is that our institutions depend on the “gold standard” review process the FDA is famous for in order to make their own policies for vaccination. If that’s compromised, then it’s kind of like what that Yale Public Health expert said: it gets even more confusing for the public.

This will be my final post on this subject since I don’t wish to debate. As helpful as the Israel data is, it’s no substitute for our own review process.

It is pretty clear that many US citizens have been placing (often misplaced) fear and/or greed ahead of science (or anything else) during most of the COVID-19 age. Both vaccine refusal (based on exaggerated fear of the vaccines) and the frantic rush for boosters (based on perception of waning immunity) are examples.

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I certainly didn’t say nor imply that, not sure where you got that idea. Of course the FDA is going to give the booster data from Pfizer a full and proper review as they should. The real world situation in Israel is supported by that Pfizer data, that’s why Israel is rolling out the third injections.

We definitely agree on that.

Are you (or is anyone) certain that there is inadequate supply of the 7 WHO approved vaccines to innoculate the world’s population (talking about the various age ranges that are so approved)? I am not sure I have seen that there are in fact vaccine supply issues at the macro level. It would be helpful to know if there is truly a shortage of vaccine, or if the true issue is one of distribution.

This is a weird kind of uno reverse card. In FL and TX you have school districts implementing mask mandates in defiance of anti-mask state mandates.

Then in OR you have have a school district firing a superintendent for actually following a state pro-mask mandate. :man_shrugging:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/us/oregon-schools-superintendent-fired-mask-mandate/index.html

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