Nothing wrong with doing your own “research”. I put that in quotes because, respectfully, you’re not doing research, you’re reading. Which you should. Very important. But make sure you’re reading reliable sources and not websites with ulterior motives or funding or those with agendas. I read a sign yesterday which holds bearing: “If you’re not a scientist and you disagree with scientists, you’re not in disagreement, you’re just wrong.” A corollary would be if you had your AC unit looked at and the repairman said you need to have your coil replaced and it would cost xxx. Well, I’m sure you could find a friend that said don’t pay it, you’ll be fine. Until one day your AC stops running in the middle of the summer. You’ll realize your friend, or your own “research” was wrong, and the expert was right.
The ACLU doesn’t agree with you.
<<<ACLU officials similarly reject the implication that their support of COVID-vaccine mandates is inconsistent with the organization’s opposition to past immunization requirements. They argue that COVID-19 is a more infectious and deadlier virus than H1N1, and that the vaccines are better. “What is the risk to public health? How effective is the vaccine? What are the alternatives?” asked Allie Bohm, a policy counsel for the New York Civil Liberties Union, summarizing the questions she considered. “The facts of H1N1 are different, and they lead to different conclusions. I don’t think that is inconsistent, because it is the same test being applied.”>>>
It seems related to the basic principle that in a society of equals, individual freedom is constrainted by others’ individual freedoms.
Each person’s freedom thus has inherent limits due to living in society. One’s freedom cannot impede on others’. That’s why a smoker can’t smoke in a restaurant: they cannot say “I respect your right not to smoke, respect my right to smoke”, because their smoking inside the restaurant will automatically impede on everyone else who doesn’t smoke and potentially get them sick.
The smoker, living in a cabin in the woods, is free to smoke, since it doesn’t impact anyone else.
That principle may not be applied if some in a society are seen as more important than others, or see themselves as superior to others, and as such do not feel that their freedom should be constrained even if it impedes upon others (yes, I smoke inside the restaurant, and if that bothers you, you can just leave and get a sandwich elsewhere).
Contagious diseases are an example of a situation where one person’s freedom to do what they want conflicts with another person’s freedom against having someone impose something undesirable on them without their consent. Societies since ancient times have made rules to handle these conflicts*, and much of politics involves arguing about what those rules should be when freedoms and rights conflict.
*For example, the ancient rule “you shall not steal” was made presumably because theft imposed an unwanted cost on non-consenting others.
Good example! Although I’ll note that it took a law being passed for smokers to be kicked out of restaurants, offices, airplanes, many hotels etc…and people are still permitted to smoke in some places such as bars, casinos, some hotel rooms and so forth.
Confirming the legality of a vaccine mandate through OSHA will greatly assist companies looking to have their employees vaccinated but it still leaves many uncovered such as small business owners and employees, the unemployed and the retired for example.
People are free to expose themselves to a deadly virus and risk their life, long-term health, and financial well-being.
Others are free to choose not to associate with them.
Organizations and groups requiring vaccinations is not an infringement on the first group’s rights. It’s the second group exercising their freedom to choose who they associate with.
Because we all wear clothes in public and think nothing of it. We conform to rules of the road or expect there could be consequences if we drive “our way.” We tend to be polite in groups and not speak over others. We don’t cut in line and find those who do quite rude. I could go on and on.
Even when we’re in our own house most of us will be considerate of others and only “be ourselves” 100% of the time when we’re alone.
We’re conditioned from a young age to think of others and not be selfish, esp when lives can be at stake - then along comes a deadly virus coupled with politics and suddenly different rules are championed by some.
What’s really sad (to me) is when it’s other folks claiming to follow a religion that promotes love and care for others above oneself as my own faith of Christianity does. To see supposedly fellow Christians be so selfish and sometimes downright mean probably makes God weep.
You are young and definitely not in a Covid high risk age group for death. Others of us are more at risk.
But there’s more than death. My own 20 something son had Covid way back in March of 2020 when it first came around. He ended up being a long hauler until his Moderna vax in April/May 2021. Now his symptoms are gone, but I can’t help but wonder what the inside of his body is like. Another son is a doctor. Where he works they wonder what the stress will be on the medical side of things 20 years from now when many youngsters who got Covid start aging and damage done to their bodies becomes more acute. Some studies done so far have shown 1/5 to 1/3 have damage to various systems and some of those even if they were asymptomatic.
There’s a reason so many are on the pro-vax side and so few are against it. There’s risk to self, risk to others, and risk to overwhelming our health care system both now and decades afterward.
In the beginning I understood some who wanted to wait to see more vaccine data. It was new and not everyone could understand the research behind it. Now it’s out there in the millions. Now I don’t understand how anyone can be anti-vax, unless they are listening to the misinformation sources.
We are still learning about the vaccine. One of the reasons why Pfizer didn’t get approval for the general-age booster was that they hadn’t provided sufficient data on the risk for younger people, including the risk of heart inflammation. We will continue to learn about this vaccine, its risks and its efficacy over time. It’s still pretty early yet, and my kids have 30+ years more than I do to experience any potential complications. As to being conditioned from a young age to think of others - our young people have also been conditioned to think of their body as their choice. And we are a country that respects the freedom to decline medical treatment. So we shouldn’t be too surprised to learn of vaccine hesitancy on grounds of freedom and the right to determine what goes in their bodies from our young people.
Except that there are still plenty “against it,” or at least hesitant, in in the health care industry.
One doesn’t have the “freedom” not to be infected by another person inadvertently with a community-spread virus when both are in a public area. There is no personal airspace that is my property when I’m at the Costco - I share it with others and I can be infected from them (even despite their best efforts). If I steal Costco’s property, however, that’s a slightly different matter. Fortunately, we in modern times understand this distinction. So did the Ancients.
That’s just not true. 96% of doctors surveyed by the AMA had gotten vaccinated, and 48% of the remainder planned to do so. The vaccines are safe for almost everyone. They’ve been used in hundreds of millions of people. Please don’t spread misinformation.
@bluebayou and @MaineLonghorn actually you are both correct but talking past one another referring to surveys done back in late July.
Your seemingly at odds interpretation of the now dated identical survey is emblematic of how persistent and polarized people are in their views, particularly when the knee jerk response is name calling.
The healthcare industry consists of more than doctors, and there are a couple of numbers floating around out there that don’t comport with the AMA survey (eta: Catcher just posted one of them). AMA has an active interest in promoting the vaccine so their numbers, perhaps unfairly, will be a tad suspect.
Physician uptake is likely very high - probably north of 75% - and surveys consistently show it to be the highest uptake among all healthcare workers. Generally, vaccine hesitancy in healthcare seems to be inversely correlated to education level, in turn correlated to more diverse racial and ethnic populations than we see among the physician group, and we know that people of color are less likely to be vaccinated than white or Asian. So there may be a couple of factors driving the lower percentages among non-physicians.
If you have a legit medical condition that would make vaccination risky for you, this wouldn’t even be an issue for you because you would have a medical exemption and no school would “force you” to get vaccinated.
Even in places that are dismissing health care workers due to vaccine refusal, it’s a small percentage of the people who work there. With actual numbers in the US or health care (or colleges or wherever) being high, it can seem like a lot of people, but percentage-wise, it isn’t.
Then too… if one polls the news sources of those against it, they tend to always lead back to the same places, and those aren’t data driven. Often they can be found on Fact Check sites.
My medical lad doesn’t know any doctors who aren’t vaccinated where he works. When he sees what others post online, he always notes that those who are so vocal and shared widely are not at all experts in Covid types of things. Many times they also get financial gain from their followers - selling snake oils and such things.
Humans see “doctor” and think they’re all the same with their knowledge and training. They aren’t. They did almost the same basic coursework in med school (there are some electives not all do), once they get out of med school paths can vary widely. It’s similar to assuming all college profs or high school teachers are knowledgeable about the same topics.
It always goes back to the same late July AMA survey. 96% of doctors vaccinated but 27% of healthcare workers not vaccinated.
Something for everyone to point to.
I was beyond shocked yesterday to discover a good friend is an antivaxxer. Her stance is that she should have choice over her own body. She listed all the ingredients in the vaccines (lots of nasty ingredients in other vaccines too, but nvm.) Almost all the comments were rebutting her viewpoint, but it was, at least, a civilized social media post.
Because she focused on choice, I asked her about those who didn’t get a choice to become infected with covid. My now-deceased MIL, my now-deceased father, my now-blind stepmom, my friend who had a liver transplant due to covid and sadly, now needs a kidney transplant. None of those people got to choose and got sick before vaccines were widely available.
So now we have vaccines, and people can choose to not make others sick. But some don’t. (As always, not talking about those with medical issues.)
I asked my friend why I can’t choose to drive drunk, or throw bricks out of windows for fun, or cough in someone’s face if I have covid. Should I be able to choose to do those things if I want to? We can’t just do whatever we want, when we want. We have a duty to try and keep others safe if we can.
Everything you wrote here is true about Covid, itself, too and the data consistently shows the potential problems from Covid are far higher than that of the vaccine - heart inflammation (or other heart issues from clotting), issues 30+ years on for kidneys, brains, lungs, heart, and probably more I’m forgetting off the top of my head this morning.
Either way one goes about it, they’re in an experimental group as we’ll be finding out more for years to come. It’s either with the vax or without it. Millions of doses post vax it’s crystal clear which group has the better odds.
Boosters are indeed new, but the data is already skewing one direction for at least those most at risk - hence, another EUA and other countries going even further.
Is anyone familiar with “The Four Tendencies” developed by Happiness guru, Gretchen Rubin? It’s a pretty fascinating concept.
The book: The Four Tendencies | Gretchen Rubin
The quiz to see which tendency you are/lean: https://quiz.gretchenrubin.com/
The four tendencies are:
- Upholders want to know what should be done.
- Questioners want justifications.
- Obligers need accountability.
- Rebels want freedom to do something their own way.
I just wonder how these tendencies relate to the vaccinated/unvaccinated. Are upholders and obligers more likely to vaccinate? Are questioners more likely to investigate/research and/or ponder more before making a decision? Do rebels tend to not vaccinate?
Monday morning thoughts…