With respect to alcohol, I said that it was illegal to drive and have too high a level of alcohol in your body. The point continues to be that what you are describing as a right is neither unfettered or respected by the political combatants.
I’ll have to get back to you on heroin, though I’d guess it is illegal to drive under the influence of heroin. It is certainly illegal to drive under the influence of meth or cocaine.
Madison Cawthorn was inveighing against vaccine mandates on Newsmax and recently said that “you actually have a constitutionally protected right to free unrestricted travel in the United States of America.” People make up a lot of rights when they think it supports them.
I think we agree that it is not religion that is driving vaccine reluctance. I don’t buy the argument that the reluctance comes from people’s sense that the vaccine was rushed. I think that is the same kind of excuse as religion. The same folks who are worried that the vaccine is rushed are happy to take Regeneron, which has not been fully tested. Some are taking ivermectin and/or hydroxychloraquine, which have not been tested in any meaningful way. Instead, I share your guess that the reluctance has to do with discomfort with who are in charge.
It is great that many people are vaccinated. I would be happy for the folks who choose to go unvaccinated to do so if their choices were not having the effects of a) killing others; b) preventing others from getting needed healthcare because ICUs are full; c) costing tons of unnecessary money (it is a lot more expensive to treat people for weeks in a hospital than to provide them with a vaccine at the cost of a few hundred dollars (my guess); and d) damaging the economy.
It’s illegal to drive under the influence of heroin. Rights always come with responsibilities - no one here has posted otherwise. If one doesn’t vaccinate, they are on the hook to take other protective measures. What they - regardless of vax status - don’t have to do is guarantee that others will never be infected by them despite reasonable protective efforts. It’s highly likely that many vaccinated people have been spreading Covid these past several weeks.
Not sure they are “happy” - more likely relieved. For many who go symptomatic, the chances of severe illness or death have just increased a notch or two.
Most of the damage the unvaccinated have inflicted has been on themselves and their families. Delta has infected the vaccinated as well, and they have been shedding as much viral load as the unvaxed. ICU beds fill up regularly during a normal year with influenza patients, it’s just not interesting news. And as for the economy: the unemployment rate is lower now than it was in May (when infection rates were a fraction of current) and economic growth (and inflation) are projected. We’ll know more once third quarter numbers are released in a week. Covid obviously disrupted economic activity in the months before the vaccine was available. Right now there are supply chain disruptions due to shortages of goods and workers. The goods are in part due to worldwide disruptions (which would exist regardless of how vaxxed the US is). But the workers are another matter. The labor force participation rate is notably lower than it was in 2019. For the past year it’s been about the same - before vax, and after vax. That statistic reflects underlying decisions about when to go back to work. Some will be temporarily furloughed due to outbreaks. But - at least around here! - the hiring signs have been out for awhile. The stock market has been shaky lately, but there are several moving parts there, not just Covid - and not just events in the US. It does appear that Delta took our political and health leaders by surprise after understandably declaring victory. That’s never good news for the economy. But the infighting over boosters underscores that it’s not merely the unvaccinated making our political and health leaders nervous. It’s vaccine efficacy in general and it’s this particular variant.
I would be comfortable with religious objections to vaccines IF they are part of a church’s teaching. You will be hard-pressed to find many such instances, though. The Amish and Christian Scientists are two examples. Did you know that even Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t object to them?
So if a person can show he or she has belonged to one of the few churches who objects to the vaccines, I would have no problem with their being exempted. But we know full well that many people will claim religious objections just to get out of the requirement.
Actually, that’s part of the problem. Those vociferously asserting that they should not be forced to take vaccines are also asserting that they shouldn’t have to wear masks in restaurants or bars. My observation is that these same folks are mostly not taking responsibility for their actions. The asserted freedom should not include the freedom to recklessly infect others, vaccinated or not. I’d consider going to a bar unvaccinated and unmasked as reckless behavior. Do you think about that differently? [I wouldn’t go into a bar these day, even masked].
How often have there been situations in which a guy with cardiac arrest can’t get a bed in 43 hospitals? At this point, there are a number of states where they have to send people out of state. Are you asserting that this happens regularly with the flu season? This sounds more like a Fox News talking point designed to deflect the conversation than reasoned thought.
The economy has definitely been weakened. The unemployment rate is a peculiar metric because its denominator is a function of the number of people who are actively looking. If folks decide are categorized as not actively looking perhaps because they are waiting for COVID to magically go away (wait, maybe he just had the wrong April), they are not, by that definition, unemployed. Hence the unemployment rate is lower but that’s really a statistical artifact.
I agree that Delta does appear to have caught the world by surprise, which is both not good and at one level surprising as the docs were saying that unless we really eradicate this (herd immunity but probably beyond), we will breeding potentially much more problematic variants. Of course, this is global and not national and given the lack of vaccine delivery to poorer countries, we were destined to have variants. I was talking to an entrepreneur in a poorer country and, long story short, while the government can afford some vaccines through COVAX, what they are being pressured to buy is the Chinese vaccine which citizens don’t want because it is not that effective. Less than 20% of the country is vaccinated. I’m sure this scenario is replicated elsewhere and they will be breeding new variants even if we were able to persuade those who currently feel entitled to appear unvaccinated and unmasked in enclosed public accommodations to vax up.
I have noticed in my liberal blue state that my highly educated, fully vaccinated friends and neighbors are doing a lot of hugging, especially when we are meeting out of doors. I’m confused as to why that is OK. It is awkward to say, “We are not hugging these day” when close friends lunge in. Behavior in a region conforms to the norms. If everyone else is doing it, it seems normal and most people end up doing it. That seems to be true here (the hugging is a new thing) and in areas where the norm is not to get vaccinated. Mandates will help a lot of people who secretly want to get vaccinated but didn’t because of what their family and/or neighbors would have said.
Unfortunately, many of those who refuse vaccination are also opposed to doing other measures to reduce spreading the virus like indoor masking and social distancing.
On the other hand, there are also places and demographics where vaccination rates are very high and other measures are still common, even beyond any state or local government health orders.
This is just not true. We have never before had flu patients in our state overwhelming ICUs (and non-ICU units) so much that other patients cannot access care or have to be transferred states away. We have NEVER seen this many patients dying from influenza since the 1918-1920 pandemic.
In addition, as shown below, a growing body of evidence suggests that COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission. Substantial reductions in SARS-CoV-2 infections (both symptomatic and asymptomatic) will reduce overall levels of disease, and therefore, SARS-CoV-2 virus transmission in the United States. Investigations are ongoing to further assess the risk of transmission from fully vaccinated persons with SARS-CoV-2 infections to other vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Early evidence suggests infections in fully vaccinated persons caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2 may be transmissible to others; however, SARS-CoV-2 transmission between unvaccinated persons is the primary cause of continued spread.
These findings, along with the early evidence for reduced levels of viral mRNA and culturable virus in vaccinated people who acquire SARS-CoV-2 infection, suggest that any associated transmission risk is substantially reduced in vaccinated people: even for Delta, evidence suggests fully vaccinated people who become infected are infectious for shorter periods of time than unvaccinated people infected with Delta.
Evidence suggests the U.S. COVID-19 vaccination program has substantially reduced the burden of disease in the United States by preventing serious illness in fully vaccinated people and interrupting chains of transmission. Vaccinated people can still become infected and have the potential spread the virus to others, although at much lower rates than unvaccinated people.
It’s not true where medical lad is either - and he lives up north where flu can be bad. They haven’t converted conference rooms and break rooms before either.
I wonder what news outlet is sharing that misinformation (sigh). My guess is they’ve picked small hospitals with few beds that might have to send people to a nearby city.
Then too, if they say it three times, people will believe them (references the video I posted earlier about how easy it is to get people to believe things).
I really agree with this writer. If an atheist wants to declare a ‘religious belief’ exemption, that’s the American way. People can convert and thus change their beliefs and practices and those who were once drinkers can become Baptists.
If people don’t want to be vaxxed, fine, but just stay away from me. Stay out of stores, restaurants, offices, stadiums.
I went to a medical appointment yesterday and it was very normal to put on a mask and keep it on the entire time. The number of people allotted to check me in seemed excessive, but other than that it seemed normal.
In reviewing exemption requests, I have found that sincere religious exemption requesters have no difficulty explaining how and why they decline vaccines, how they do not deviate from this practice, and how this practice interfere with their daily life.
The rest are objecting primarily on political/social grounds masquerading as religious beliefs.
Delta is much different. The load in vaccinated folks is high, as noted in the report that you posted, but may of shorter duration. The fact the vaccinated can spread Delta, and still get infected, is why the feds reversed course and went back to recommending masks for the vaccinated.
JBS’ point is correct: vaccinated folks do spread Delta. (So, when they go into the aforementioned bars and restaurants…btw: simple solution, just don’t go into them.)
These findings, along with the early evidence for reduced levels of viral mRNA and culturable virus in vaccinated people who acquire SARS-CoV-2 infection, suggest that any associated transmission risk is substantially reduced in vaccinated people, even for Delta, evidence suggests fully vaccinated people who become infected are infectious for shorter periods of time than unvaccinated people infected with Delta.
Vaccinated people can spread delta, BUT AT LOWER RATES. It’s just not accurate to suggest or imply that vaccines have no affects on transmission rates. They DO.
@roycroftmom, do those with sincere religious beliefs also take responsibility (wear masks, avoid being unmasked in public places, etc.) per @JBStillFlying’s statement that with rights come responsibilities? Do they argue against the changes in their jobs that employers may have to make to keep others safe? .
This suggests that there is no significant effect of the vaccines on transmission, whether or not it is explicitly stated. I see this ALL the TIME here and elsewhere. Yes, we know that vaccinated individuals can spread Covid. But they absolutely do NOT at the same rates as the unvaccinated. That part of the reality is rarely to never posted when people make the point that vaccines are not guaranteed to prevent transmission between individuals.
I expect that they will have to agree to abide by whatever accomodations we offer at work or leave employment. What they do outside of work is not my concern once an exemption is granted. The difficulty is that employers may be expected to pay for testing and time off to get tested for such persons if that is one of the accomodations presented.
People are often surprised when nurses spout antivaccine rhetoric. There are a fair amount of them, but they are not basing their stance on some kind of “inside information.” They are simply revealing that some of them are just as vulnerable to lies, conspiracy, and political dogma as any other human being.
Yes, the article focusing on them as personal beliefs as that’s how the constitution does too. You can disagree with your organized religion but it can still be your belief. In the USA, we have freedom of religion or freedom of non-organized religion.
I don’t think one should have to convert to Christian Scientist to have a belief. I don’t think that because the Catholic church says you don’t have to go to mass every day that those who choose to do so are wrong. Their choice in how to interpret their religion in a more conservative way than the powers that be do for the majority of members is fine.
I agree that many people are looking for a justification for not getting vaccinated, but that’s their right under the constitution. They, of course, then have to ‘pay’ for their choices with not being allowed into private businesses like restaurants or stores. They have to comply with mask rules for medical appointments and schools or they can give up those things. Choices.