Herman Caine died in July 2020 of Covid, well before vaccines were available.
Emphasis mine
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Future healthcare premiums are based on member usage. Recent history suggests incremental costs of Covid care have been offset by diminished usage of other healthcare benefits. While this does suggest potential negative health consequences, premiums are not anticipated to be âsky rocketingâ. Actually we are seeing slower growth rates then typical.
At my mid size financial institution we have just approved our healthcare benefits for next year with a flat rate versus prior year having received an ACA credit and distribution based on lower then anticipated usage. Our benefits broker had indicated that typical YOY increases for 2022 are in the 3% range for our peers vs 8% historically.
Similarly federal employees are seeing what in historic terms is only a modest premium increaseâŠ
I am not supporting the unvaccinated just highlighting the reality of what Covid has done (or not done) to healthcare costs.
The bigger concern is that as a result of Covids continued evolution people are reluctant to go to doctors and seek out prompt medical care. This medical hesitancy will inevitably diminish our collective health. It is this consequence that should compel the vaccine resistant to get the jab.
About Cain- I believe its wrong to claim he was anti-mask: âCain, dressed in a deep blue Hawaiian shirt, with a portrait of Ronald Reagan visible behind him, filmed that dayâs [episode] as planned, speaking for 14 minutes about the âMarxistâ agenda of the Black Lives Matter movement, clashes with police in Seattle and Oakland, and new signs that the COVID death rate was finally dropping. âThatâs good news,â he said in the episode, âbut people have got to take it seriously. Social-distancing, sanitizing, washing your hands, and wearing masks â thatâs how we really get our hands around this, folks.â By the late afternoon, both felt worse and decided to go home early.â âŠâŠ. â Early on in the pandemic, according to Melanie, he convened a meeting with his staff to set down protocols for handwashing, social distancing, and wearing masks. He also got in the habit of opening episodes of his daily video show by reminding viewers to take the virus seriously and follow guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His advice early on in the pandemic, unlike much of the presidentâs, was practical and unequivocal. He suggested wiping down surfaces, as he said he had done at home and around the office â âcleaning all handles, cleaning all knobs,â he [told his followers]in March. He encouraged wearing masks and keeping a distance of 6 feet around strangers, as he said he did. âI think those things are gonna be with us for quite some time, folks,â he [predicted] of CDC guidelines in an episode in May. â
Donât agree that he should be labelled as anti-mask. He apparently didnât wear it at that Trump rally he attended. Stupid choice (probably coerced). Big mistake. Deadly decision .
And this thread now being in slow mode is really irritating to those of us who have posted in it maybe a handful of times ever, at most. Put those posters who are rapid-fire posting in slow mode, but not the rest of us. Super annoying.
You are correct that at the beginning of the pandemic, people were scared to go to the doctor and put off treatments. Before the pandemic, I would see about 10 cancers a day, during the beginning of the pandemic it was around 1-2/day, but in the last few months itâs over 15 a day. Those who put off seeing their PCP, getting their mammogram, colonoscopy, surgery - theyâre still out there but now unfortunately worse off (the tumors are more aggressive and have more widely metastasized). Will cost more to treat now, but, more importantly, worse in terms of health and survival for these poor folks. At the beginning these people were replaced by covid patients (either of their own volition or by hospitals who didnât have the staffing to treat them), hospitals still probably lost money (several closed) because taking care of covid patients is expensive. Many covid are uninsured and going to county hospitals (government paying so they will need to be âreimbursedâ). Now the non-covid patients are coming back in droves to make up for the lost time. The full $$ of this hasnât been realized yet but it has cost the system billions that will need to be reimbursed somehow. Either by higher insurance premiums, taxes, printing money and lowering the value of the dollar, a combination, who knows. But we all will be paying for this. And continue to be paying. Itâs too early for the cost to be passed on to the consumer, and may just be incrementally done so for the next few years by insurance companies. Then thereâs the governmentâŠ
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Couldnât agree more.
Personally I had a recurrent melanoma surgery postponed several times based on Covid related delays and obstacles. Not all of which are directly attributable to the unvaccinated but certainly everyone should recognize the common good is to see us mitigate and ultimately eliminate if possible C19.
Even the most reticent should be willing to acknowledge that the most likely and efficient way to achieve these goals is through vaccination. I would still hope that those who are resisting getting the vaccine would focus on the health consequences they are burdening society with compared to the perceived sacrifice of either personal freedoms or risk they are taking.
Stated differently you are being asked (not told) to take a vaccine which has been proven safe (with modest side effects) in order to improve the long term health of your entire country and society. Please do what is right.
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I guess it shows natural immunity works. He wonât be getting Covid again.
This is nothing new and bears watching for sure. Itâs why many are looking to see what the results were from Israel and other countries who started boosters sooner. The whole planet is in an experiment and only time (coupled with researchers who know what they are doing) will be able to figure out whose theories are more correct with what happens. At this point, we know vaccines work very significantly better than not being vaxxed. Boosters are at the beginning of their âin useâ trial (vs normal trials).
And as such, I think those previously vaxxed can choose the group they want to try without condemnation. Itâs totally different than those choosing to go with ânatural immunityâ prior to getting Covid when vaccines have already proven their worth (as George Holliday did).
Iâm personally more lenient in that Iâd allow natural immunity from those who had Covid (and tested so with antibodies later allowing them to show this rather than a vax card as proof) to count as being vaccinated even though it appears getting vaxxed post Covid provides the best odds yet.
But I donât get to make the decisions.
Thatâs not the only qualification for the list - and he was at that rally without a mask in spite of what he might have preached - as you said - his choice - just as others are making their choices. All list members died from theirs.
You can put a few quotes into one reply rather than addressing each one individually.
Yes, weâve found out itâs fairly impossible to get appointments around our area now. Fortunately, H was able to go to Urgent Care for an eye infection. His eye doctorâs office is down to 2 doctors from 4 and said since he hadnât been there in three years, they wouldnât take him. Iâm supposed to have a 5 year MRI update on my BT this year. I donât know whether to even try to schedule one TBH. In the past they had called me to make appointments. No one has this time.
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@Creekland - hard to know how much of a âchoiceâ Herman Cain felt he had to wear/not wear a mask, as a well known figure in the R. party, when he stupidly decided to attend that Trump rally. Well, sadly, we all know how that turned out.
Also, the long posts with multiple quotes are hard to read, IMO. Not saying you shouldnât do it just saying it takes a lot of skill to read and quote all those posts. Way above my skill base, and hard to read long posts.
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@Creekland you have always been a thoughtful and kind poster. With that in mind I am a bit surprised with the flippant nature of your comment about a manâs death.
I personally take no pleasure or find humor in the loss of anyoneâs life even when they make lifestyle decisions that are at odds with my beliefs.
I fear a society that feels vindicated when members with divergent views perish and celebrates their deaths with humor.
I suspect not your intent but speaking more broadly
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I can understand Creeklandâs comment. Itâs frustrating that some look at COVID so flippantly - âI will just get natural immunity, no problem.â Itâs ignorant and dangerous.
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I see it more as sad and hope that others will learn from his mistakes (used his reasoning in my quote) as itâs the only positive that can come out of it at this point.
I know plenty of others IRL who feel the same way he did. For sure, not all die or even have a bad case of it, but it really is akin to not wearing seat belts, except there are more deaths from Covid than car accidents, though that varies by age - with his age group there would be more from Covid. When one draws the short straw, itâs bad, so itâs worth it to have the odds in oneâs favor vs against.
Everyone assumes they are the star of the movie and nothing bad will happen. IRL there are plenty who end up wearing the red shirt (Star Trek reference, red shirts meant they would die). No one knows ahead of time who was cast in which role.
Learn from otherâs mistakes. Donât repeat them.
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I see it is analogous to the schizophrenic who doesnât take prescribed meds and self harms, the opioid addict who overdoses, the underage drunk driver that hits a tree, the informed idiot like myself that has melanoma but doesnât wear SPF daily.
All are making bad decisions none deserve ridicule in death or devalues their life. I understand âfrustrationâ but I donât think it is an excuse for a lack of humanity or humility.
I wish no one (even the ignorant) harm in spite of my frustration with their decisions. We are all entitled to decide how we want to treat others and we expect to be treated. I will continue to defer to looking to the positives in people (particularly in death) and a bit surprised that such an approach appears controversial.
One last thought. If you are asking people to get vaccinated out of respect for their neighbors we should treat these same people with respect in death in spite of their poor decisions.
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People with schizophrenia (âschizophrenicâ is not a preferred term) are not in the same category as anti-vaxxers. Specifically, 1/2 of people with severe mental illness do not believe they are ill (they suffer from a condition called anosognosia) - not taking meds is part of their illness. People with addictions are also different, since they are ill.
If you donât want to wear sunblock, thatâs your right - nobody else will fall ill if you donât. But when you donât get vaccinated, you do affect others and help to draw out this pandemic.
I refer you again to the Maine state representative who to this day is posting memes mocking those of us who choose to get vaccinated, weeks after he recovered from COVID and his wife died of it (look up Chris Johansen on Facebook if you donât believe me). I donât respect either of them. They have influenced many followers to believe the same nonsense and it IS dangerous.
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Yes, thereâs always that point where you think âsurely now theyâll see the seriousness of it,â and then you realize that no, theyll drive it straight into dying or seeing people they love die horrible deaths. And thatâs also when you realize they donât care about anyone elseâs life, either.
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Tamiflu and Relenza have been around for years, well-known to mitigate effects of flu. I remember years ago there was a run on the medication and pharmacies were out. Those with high risk conditions could not find the meds because other people were hoarding it. Wonder how this plays out (emphasis on âexperimentalâ)âŠ
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Many of us reached the point of apathy long ago.
I donât celebrate when someone dies of covid due to their own arrogance and stupidity, but I also donât have one iota of sympathy for anyone except the people they infected, the people struggling (and sometimes failing!) to get treatment at hospitals overcrowded with wholly preventable covid cases, and the healthcare workers who are working themselves to the bone to save these people.
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Thatâs where Iâm at. You stated it perfectly.
IRL I think it actually does more good when those who have bad cases survive because they can truly warn others to not follow their path - nagging if necessary. When itâs just âsomeone elseâ dying I think many ignore it figuring, âwell they werenât fit enough, but I am.â
If I could pick crimes to die for, not getting vaxxed wouldnât rank up there. Top spaces would be reserved for soon-to-be terrorists, abusers of others, murderers, and similar ilk. I often wonder why they couldnât have had the deadly car crashes just prior to their crime instead of the average folks going about on average days.
Sounds quite promising!
Of course, the odds that they have enough to supply the world of antivaxxers and those countries currently unable to procure the vaccine?
Hi everyone,
I put this thread on slow mode to break up what looked to be a debate forming between a few people. Please donât use this thread to debate back and forth. If youâd like to engage in a chat with someone, send a PM, otherwise make your point and move on in this thread.
Iâll remove slow mode for now, but please be mindful of dominating the thread.
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The NYT, in their daily e-mail, had a good write up about vaccine mandates:
The United States owes its existence as a nation partly to an immunization mandate.
In 1777, smallpox was a big enough problem for the bedraggled American army that George Washington thought it could jeopardize the Revolution. An outbreak had already led to one American defeat, at the Battle of Quebec. To prevent more, Washington ordered immunizations â done quietly, so the British would not hear how many Americans were sick â for all troops who had not yet had the virus.
It worked. The number of smallpox cases plummeted, and Washingtonâs army survived a war of attrition against the worldâs most powerful country. The immunization mandate, as Ron Chernow wrote in his 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Washington, âwas as important as any military measure Washington adopted during the war.â
In the decades that followed, immunization treatments became safer (the Revolutionary War method killed 2 percent or 3 percent of recipients), and mandates became more common, in the military and beyond. They also tended to generate hostility from a small minority of Americans.
A Cambridge, Mass., pastor took his opposition to a smallpox vaccine all the way to the Supreme Court in 1905, before losing. Fifty years later, while most Americans were celebrating the start of a mass vaccination campaign against polio, there were still some dissenters. A United Press wire-service article that ran in newspapers across the country on April 13, 1955, reported:
Hundreds of doctors and registered nurses stood ready to begin the stupendous task of inoculating the millions of children throughout the country.
Some hitches developed, however. In Marylandâs Montgomery County, 4,000 parents flatly refused to let their youngsters receive the vaccine. Two counties in Indiana objected that the plan smacked of socialized medicine.
Then it compares events to today with most people at companies with mandates choosing to get the vax, but some opting to lose their jobs - a very small percentage - and showing the numbers that it appears to be working to lessen Covid.
I like the rational it relays:
The rationale for workplace mandates revolves around those large benefits: Even in a country that prioritizes individual freedom as much as the U.S. does, citizens do not have the right to harm their colleagues or their colleaguesâ families, friends and communities. One personâs right to a healthy life is greater than another personâs right to a specific job.
In 1905, when the Supreme Court ruled against the Massachusetts pastor who did not want to take a smallpox vaccine, Justice John Marshall Harlan explained that the Constitution did not allow Americans always to behave however they chose. âReal liberty for all could not exist,â Harlan wrote in his majority opinion, if people could act âregardless of the injury that may be done to others.â
A century+ later and a different Pandemic, but not much is new among humans vs disease.
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