Here’s the deal. If the science being communicated to the public is only based on the studies that conclude that the vaccine is safe and dismisses any studies that question that safety, then we should be very afraid.
What I’ve found is that people who got in line for the vaccine will not question their decision, will not accept any questioning of the risk and also push it on everybody else using all kinds of psychological methods. That’s what propaganda campaigns historically do to societies. Even the studies of how to convince those who are rejecting the vaccine are really studies in forming the most effective propaganda campaigns.
The vaccine rejecters generally want to follow the science. But the science isn’t there and really can’t be there in this short of time. The data is still coming in. In the meantime, I’m participating as part of the control group.
ok- for those of you with minor kids still - today’s (5/11) NPR On Point discussion is fascinating. I’d encourage all to listen. Drs. interviewed from all over. No complete consensus on the vaccine for youth.
It’s important to educate ourselves, for sure. Because I am not a doctor, I choose which sources to follow carefully. I want to know they are smart, and on the ball (ie that they aren’t espousing some fringe, unsupported theory).
I get STAT news’ daily email; I listen to Michael Osterholm’s podcast (and read everything I can of his. He is a professor of Epidemiology at the University of Minnesota, and recognized long before COVID as an expert on pandemics), I listen to “In the Bubble” hosted by a U. of San Francisco Medical School professor, and “This Wwek In Virology” – which is sometimes above my head – in which a panel of virology professors discuss the implications of various aspects of viruses, mostly COVID19. I will choose to weight what all of them say over a motley collection of doctors with some red flags for me. None have the credibility and experience of the experts I listen to.
Yet many are led astray by conspiracy theorists and propagandists (remember Wakefield?) while being convinced that everything other than the propaganda that they hold dearly is propaganda.
To be clear, I am being diplomatic in my posts. I rely on actual studies and not websites that may tend political. I also rely on @ucbalumnus
I was afraid of the mRNA vaccines due to an intolerance of polyethylene glcol but both shots have been fine and I am grateful for them.
This thread has lasted despite the dangers of being closed down and I don’t want to cause any problems so I am not going to say anymore regarding research biases.
The science is still out on who is being led astray. This is why the discussion is so valuable and should not be shut down. Neither majority opinion nor public policy are always (and often aren’t) indicators of truth. Biases are real - for both for you and me. What’s conspiracy one day is truth on another day.
I do think it’s very important to know the individual risks of taking the vaccine. Dismissing information out of hand doesn’t achieve this. Calling research conspiracy because it doesn’t agree with what you’ve concluded or doesn’t agree with the popular opinion does not achieve this either.
I actually did read the articles you posted on ADE and found them to be of great value. I will continue to read from all angles, but tend to post from the least represented one because I think that questioning is important. It is, in fact, the basis of science.
And I think you have shown bravery in getting the vaccine with your medical issues.
I hope that everything goes well and that you have a great reunion with your daughter. And regular visits with your mom. I saw my mom last weekend, and it was wonderful.
This pandemic has stolen so much from all of us. It’s been a year of sacrifice.
My kids were born at Wakefield’s hospital at the very time he instigated the MMR controversy, and his claims were a HUGE source of angst. I did get my kids vaccinated, but I would be lying if I said I wasn’t worried. I just reminded myself that getting those diseases was worse, not just for my family, but for society. It was a few more years before he was discredited and I felt very angry that one person did so much damage to a system that had been working well for decades.
If we want to find the root of the problem, we can look at him. But plenty of people gave him credibility and fostered enough distrust in medicine and health officials that the issue has now been able to come back on an even larger scale.
I have been impressed with the civility in which the CC community has engaged this topic. This topic can get heated very quickly and we’ve managed to keep it (mostly) civil for nearly 1000 posts! We should take pride that we can discuss controversial topics and keep our lids on.
That said, this thread is coming to the end of its life. Why? Let me explain:
Long threads are hard to follow and even harder for new folks to start fresh. The Summary post says it would take 168 minutes(!) to read through the entire thread.
Long threads tend to be circular because it is so hard to remember what has been discussed already.
Long threads tend to meander off-topic. There are several posts in this thread that could start their own self-contained threads.
Much has been said, everyone has had a chance to participate, and there are few new points to be made on the original post.
With that in mind, the mod team and I have decided to sunset this thread. This doesn’t mean we don’t want to discuss COVID or other important topics, only that this particular thread has run its course and we should start new ones. New threads will help keep discussions on-topic and also serve new folks who want to jump in from the start.
This thread will close on Thursday at 6pm ET. This is your official call for a “sum-it-up” post if you would like to get in a final word. Thank you for being part of our amazing community and see you in other threads!
Thank you! I would add that a lot has changed since this thread opened. Appreciate the thread . I was so scared of the vaccine due to allergies and folks were helpful. At this point, hope we can all agree on it riding into the sunset!
I think it’s just cultural for many. In our culture it’s the same—no nursing homes. No exceptions. Someone steps up to the plate and sometimes several someones and pay for outside assistance if necessary.
For those who are interested in digging deeper into the science of mRNA vaccines (or rather the delivery system) ( @scout59 if you are still reading CC).
The “ingredients” mixed with the mRNA piece to form a nanoparticle have been around for a while. In 2018, the FDA approved a first lipid nanoparticle based drug, Onpattro (the active ingredient in it is a form of a nucleic acid).
I appreciate concerns about possible unknown side-effects of the vaccine. But that should also be balanced by both known and unknown side-effects of covid-19 itself.
That is, if you’re concerned that vaccine side-effects might pop up in 10 years, then you should be equally concerned that covid-19 side-effects will also pop up in 10 years.
If you choose not to get the vaccine because of that concern, then you’re essentially choosing to take the covid-19 risk instead.
That said, it is well-known that covid-19 has a significant risk of medium-term side effects, e.g. the long-haulers. In fact it’s unknown how long the long-haulers may be affected; it may well be lifelong. There’s also known long-term side effects such as diminished lung capacity.
I’m unaware of serious medium-term side effects from the vaccine; there’s the blood-clotting thing, but I believe that’s literally a one in a million side-effect. If there’s serious issues that can last for months, I’d be interested in hearing about it.
So I don’t think vaccinated people are ignoring unknown vaccine risks or playing them down. Rather they’re looking at the well-documented covid risks and wondering why people think getting covid is safer than a vaccine. Some people fear the unknown more than the known, and some are the opposite.
But you can do a lot to protect yourself from getting Covid. It’s not a choice between getting Covid and a getting a vaccine. It’s a choice between the possibility of getting Covid and the possibility of having long-term side effects afterwards vs. getting the vaccine.
However, unless you are normally a hermit, avoiding COVID-19 exposure does require constant vigilance (doable, but annoying to many people), and expectations / requirements of others’ behavior around you (hard to guarantee, especially if you work or do other activity that require in-person presence). Or expecting everyone else to get vaccinated to provide herd immunity to protect you.
For the general population (as opposed to those with known specific medical contraindications) the chance of getting COVID-19 multiplied by the chance of bad effects is still orders of magnitude greater than the chance of bad effects from a vaccine.
Since we only have a few months of experience with the vax, not sure that you can say this. We have no way of knowing if the vax will itself have any long-term effects, particularly for still-maturing bodies. Fortunately, my kids are adults now and they are vaccinated, but if I had kids <18, I would hold off on the vaccine until more data is available as the “chance of bad effects” for kids is quite low. This is a virus that hits the elderly and those with multiple co-morbidities hard. Those younger with zero co-morbiditiy, not so much. (per Fauci)
