Medical boy has some good reasoning he’s shared with others when they’ve been unsure about all the mixed info out there. I’ve summed up his explanation.
Before Covid on any given day we’ll have first incidences of stroke, epilepsy, tumors, other cancers, blood clots, high/low blood pressure, cardiac issues, respiratory issues, renal issues, and even occasionally more rare ones that turn out to be ALS or something else sinister and evil. This was all normal in the medical world at the hospital before Covid even existed. None of that went away. It’s still happening.
Then add Covid. It’s testable so we know who’s had it or via symptoms who’s likely to have had it. When things happen during or after Covid we have to determine if Covid was involved. We know Covid stresses all systems, so it very likely is involved in causing that heart attack or stroke “now,” but it could have happened “now” or “next Tuesday” anyway. We have to look at what the norm was before Covid and what the incident increase has been post Covid among sufferers to see if Covid causes things. It does.
It’s the same with the vaccinations. A certain number of people were going to have a stroke or heart attack today anyway. Some were going to see their first symptoms of cancer or ALS or other things. It didn’t matter if they were vaccinated or not. It was going to happen. To determine if the vaccines cause side effects like those they have to compare the numbers without the vaccine to the numbers with and see if there’s a statistical increase.
It really is possible for someone to have a stroke (those are relatively common) right after or within days of the vaccine and not have it be connected. Some people just are going to have strokes today. It happens and people are almost always taken off guard for a first stroke. That’s why they’re keeping track of data all over for both Covid and each vax. So far we’re sure about Covid - how increasingly bad it is long term is still a question, but we know more people than usual get things during and afterward.
The vax doesn’t seem to be “beating” the numbers on most things, but both are still being studied. Myocarditis is happening among a few for the vax, and more for Covid, but by itself, it’s often short lived and not usually a major concern. It can be treated, so is worth watching and getting medical help if needed.
There is no big mystery here as to what is credible and what isn’t. If anyone is providing a link to a known outlet for an antivax group disguised as legitimate, as someone did earlier, that garbage needs to be flagged and removed. If someone posts a link to the Economist, the Wall Street Journal, or the CDC, it is generally credible.
Anyone here who posts a link to anything, needs to ensure that they are posting CREDIBLE articles that can be checked if needed.
We ALL agreed to the Terms of Service when we signed up for CC. From #6, TOS: “College Confidential reserves the right at all times to remove any information or materials, in whole or in part, that in College Confidential’s sole and absolute discretion are objectionable. You acknowledge that College Confidential reserves the right to monitor any and all information transmitted or received through the Website, including the forums, which information may be examined…”
Terms of Service are linked at the bottom of every page, so feel free to read them again. If a user posts stuff that is linked to fringe or conspiracy theorist organizations or groups, do not be surprised if it disappears. People should post their antivax agenda items on their social media page.
I share your frustration! I posted the link because that is what everyone here has been doing, sharing information. I’m all about research, the more the better. I hadn’t seen this information shared, so I posted it. I also sent it to my mother, telling her if/when she is out and about she might consider wearing a mask (she is fully vaxxed.) I made no judgement about the content. The link clearly referenced a reputable source. It is the reader’s job to read, assess, and take from it what they will, not mine. I also assume people will read beyond a headline.
Hello everyone! A quick reminder that I (or any other mod) will not be the arbiter of credible/non-credible information on this thread. Who is the arbiter then?
You!
If you see a post that contains questionable information of any kind, flag it. Does it already have a flag? Flag it again. Most of you are senior members, if two of you flag any posts, it will be automatically hidden and escalated for review.
If a user posts too many links that get flagged, they’ll eventually be automatically demoted to a level where links are not allowed. The system is meant for all of us to have the power to (collectively) keep the discussion vibrant, the spam minimized, and the community healthy.
None of the mods have time to police all the content on the site, especially that which is considered controversial. A healthy community will do a certain amount of self-policing, escalating to mods when necessary. That escalation primarily occurs through flags.
If the amount of work for the mods on this thread becomes too great, it will be closed. If discussion turns to debate with a small group of people, it will also be closed. A lack of self-policing will ultimately also lead to closure. We’ve tried really hard to keep the thread open but it won’t last if there aren’t enough people pitching in to flag questionable content.
The article referenced a Lancet study but didn’t link the study. At the bottom of the article, it states the following:
Except for the headline, this story has not been edited by NDTV staff and is published from a syndicated feed.
In this instance, I don’t think your source was the best. I’d rather get as close to the primary source as possible. Beyond that, I know nothing of NDTV in terms of its credibility.
I was vaccinated at a local CVS. When I visited my doctor for a follow up appointment, I was ready to provide them with my vaccine information, but they magically already had it. I assume they obtained it through my insurer–I was asked for insurance info when I signed up for the vaccine.
But part of electronic medical records. In the same way, your doctor sends a prescription to CVS, CVS can send vaccine information to them. It’s the same way with the flu vaccine, at least it was for me.
At least that’s how I think it works. I had my vaccine at Riteaid and it was in my records at my physician’s office. They send me a notification every time there’s an update to my records. Super helpful when I have assorted tests done
I don’t think this is exactly on point - but still worth discussing. First, no one has ever accused the American public of being super savvy about the difference between anecdote and science. I therefore doubt they did for the polio vaccine.
Second and more interestingly, there were problems with the polio vaccine rollout, including a manufacturing error that resulted in 40,000 polio cases due directly to vaccination. Reports of symptoms were initially greeted with skepticism but once people realized what was happening the vaccination campaign became a much harder sell. But the campaign was successful! How? How was public mistrust overcome? That is what we should be discussing. Link to the polio vaccination story here: Lessons from how the polio vaccine went from the lab to the public that Americans can learn from today
[quote=“MADad, post:1761, topic:3498062”]We just took the vaccine because the people we trusted told us we needed to. The same people we should trust today. Leave the conspiracy theories at the door.
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Again, what do you say to people who don’t think they can trust the medical industry? Serious question, and the point of the thread, yes? Calling them conspiracy theorists won’t work, for sure. The people I’ve talked to (and I get it … this is anecdote) are not conspiracy theorists. They just think the medical industry will act in the medical industry’s best interests, which may or may not intersect with their own best interests. (And it seems like no one trusts the CDC, which is quite sad. The government part of the COVID response really was botched.)
This is scary. I hope we can stop pointing fingers at each other and get this figured out.
Why are we assuming that the US is doing a poorer job with the Covid vaccine? Here are some numbers for comparison:
According to that article, 30 million children were innoculated against polio in one year. Looking up the population of children in the mid 50s here POP1 Child population: Number of children (in millions) ages 0–17 in the United States by age, 1950–2022 and projected 2023–2050 it looks like the number seems to be about 53.9 and 55.7 million. Splitting the difference: 54.8 million (0-17). That means about 55% of all children were innoculated against polio in one year, and the incidence of polio was halved over the year as a result.
In comparison, per NYT, 53% of all eligible for the Covid vaccine ages 12+ have been vaccinated so far Covid-19 Vaccinations: County and State Tracker - The New York Times It’s only been six months since the vaccine began to roll out, and only a few months since it became widely available to 16+. In that latter (short) period, the number of new Covid cases has plummeted. Between March 30 and now, there have been approximately 3 million new cases. The prior three months, there were 10 million new cases. So new cases have declined basically by 70% in three months time. Not 50% within a year’s time as with polio. And this despite all the “mistrust” and “vaccine-reluctance” associated with the Covid vaccine efforts. Plus we know that practically all Covid outbreaks now - particularly those resulting in hospitalization and death - are among the unvaccinated. The vaccinated right now are pretty safe.
Of course, this isn’t over - the Delta variant is a threat. It would be great if our numbers could be higher. However, as noted from that article, it took a couple years for polio cases drop by the same amount. We are moving a bit faster than that, but perhaps with a lot more dissatisfaction and impatience and a lot less joy and enthusiasm compared to those 50’s parents. I wonder why that is - perhaps it’s just easier to bicker at the national level now, and that causes us to lose sight of the great progress we’ve made, starting with the fact that we even have a vaccine in the first place.
Maryland has a vaccine registry. I didn’t even realize they had something like this until after we got our Covid vaccines. Using my personal information, I was able to create an account and log in - not only was my Covid vaccine listed, but my flu shot from last fall was also recorded. I was also able to link my (minor) daughter’s account to mine and see her recorded vaccines as well. I had my sons (both over 18) create accounts as well to make sure their vaccines were recorded since they were both vaccinated at different places than my daughter and I were. I don’t think my husband ever checked to see if his is recorded but assume it is.
From the study: the British variant is approx. 30% more transmissible than the original COVID strain, and the Delta variant is 97% more transmissible.
Couple that with the emerging evidence that Delta causes more severe disease, and in younger people, again I urge anyone on the fence to protect themselves (via vaccination)
So what techniques and tips can you provide to address vaccine reluctance, given this new data? If sharing those more alarming statistics with others, how can one do it in a way that appears - well - appropriately alarming but not “alarmist?” Because that might be part of the issue with vaccine-reluctance: the drum beat is falling on increasingly deaf ears.
Perhaps they will be convinced when they or their friends and family get sick or die. That’s what it takes for a lot of people. They may not act until it strikes too close to home. In my own family, my dad was a covid skeptic until he got it and gave it to my mom. A few weeks after my dad passed, my previously reluctant sister got vaccinated. Though my parents both recovered from covid, she saw how it destroyed my mom’s vision and kicked my dad’s cancer into high gear. (I previously mentioned that the oncologist believes covid was the reason his cancer metastasized.)
This latest variant will work its way through areas where there are still many unvaccinated people. Most will be fine, but probably some won’t. I hope I’m wrong.
Thank you @CC_Mike . Personally, I think the way you, and the mods, and CC has handled this thread to be ideal. Thank you for letting intelligent discussion flourish!
Lindgraf is correct. Unfortunately, the school of hard knocks works. OTOH, state/local health departments do need to continue to educate marginalized groups who have been used as guiena pigs in previous decades and have good reason to distrust US health care. And finally, once a full approval is obtained for children, state health departments can mandate the vax for school attendance. (And while they are at it, the state legislatures should follow the lead of ~5 other states, and update their vax laws to eliminate religious exemptions as no major religion objects to vaccinations.)