Yes, I do. I don’t want to get political on here, but I think there are certain politicians and media figures who will not say they have been vaccinated. They think that will give a “win” to the other side.
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Although this thread is now a series of repetitive circles, I will again state the obvious: no one knows the long term effects of covid. And so far, the available data show that the long term effects of covid are not good. By every single available piece of data, getting covid is much more detrimental to one’s health than getting a vaccine.
It’s amazing how effective the propagandists are. I truly hope someone launches lawsuits against some of the worst perpetrators for deliberately spreading misinformation that endangers the health of others.
Someone upthread stated they have moral issues with getting the vaccine. I’m wondering if those same people have moral issues about giving the virus to others should they get it. And given that many people could have been vaccinated, chose not to, and subsequently got sick, do they have moral issues about getting sick themselves, being unable to work, or take care of a family member? (People with legitimate medical issues which make them hesitant are not who I refer to.)
@MaineLonghorn posted her account of an acquaintance who was hospitalized recently with covid and was now urging people to get vaccinated. That story makes me sad. I hope that guy is back home.
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“Dr. Tom Shimabukuro, deputy director of the CDC’s Immunization Safety Office, said in a presentation that data from one of the agency’s safety monitoring systems - Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) – suggests a rate of 12.6 cases per million in the three weeks after the second shot in 12- to 39-year-olds.”
“We’re observing this in the younger age groups, mainly in people in the teens and early 20s, and observing it more in males, compared to females,” Shimabukuro said. “This effect largely kind of disappears once you get into these older age groups - individuals 50 and over.”
Young males are experiencing a more frequent incidence, so their risk is actually higher than for the 12-39 year old population. It would be good to understand what that risk actually is, even if small.
There was also this post by @annoyingmom21 describing a health care worker who refused vaccination and who then attended a family gathering and may have been the spreader (6 of 9 unvaccinated people got sick with COVID-19, 1 of 4 partially vaccinated people got sick, and 0 of 3 vaccinated people got sick) based on timelines: Colleges in the 2021-2022 Academic Year & Coronavirus (Part 2) - #1353 by annoyingmom21
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Hmm. It’s not clear which side has more incentive to lie. One could be motivated by politics, the other by fear of enraging their neighbors and family . . .
I know for a fact that there are 2 people in this country who are outwardly anti vaxxers,but who believe they snuck in and got a vaccination. In both cases, the pressure from their own social circle to be anti vax makes them fearful of being forthcoming about their vaccination status. Of course, these are anecdotes, but I believe that we’ll find out in the fall that there are thousands, maybe millions, who are closeted vaccine recipients for the same reason.
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You’re probably right. I’m sure there are people telling their friends they were vaccinated for the same reason. ETA: maybe not their friends, but coworkers or acquaintances.
Except employers can request to see the vaccination records, and if the employee lied, that can be grounds for firing.
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The question was asked at the meeting about whether that 12.-something per million could be quoted to families and CDC’s response was that they would be reluctant to use that particular number as quite a bit of crunching was involved and the 7-day risk was greater than 21-day. Slides are here; I would check out #19 and 26-29, among others. There is also a difference between dose 1 and 2, with the increased risk after dose 2 being statistically significant, vs dose 1 which also presented increased risk but the data not statistically significant, if I heard correctly.
The risk benefit slides are a different set, here. One of the committee member docs was incredulous at slide 39.
Editing again to add that I think they don’t vote until tomorrow. The slides and presentation were obviously prepared in advance followed by Q&A. This did not seem to be a decision-making session, or at least there wasn’t meaningful back-and-forth discussion among the members hashing anything out. Perhaps that occurs in some other setting, if it occurs.
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Maybe, but to be clear about my prediction: I do not think there will be a tally indicating fewer vaccines were given than Americans who say they got them. I don’t believe that the number of folks lying on each side will cancel each other out either.
Oh, I know. It’s just something I never even thought of, but when you mentioned it, I imagined that there are probably people on the other side of the fence doing the same thing. I can’t see the number of folks lying about not getting vaxxed being large enough to be statistically significant, but who knows.
I think that maybe there will be a lot more people who will lie and say they are vaccinated because it makes things more pleasant for them in terms of needing to wear masks, etc… Maybe that number is large enough to be statistically significant. I have a feeling it is, but as you say, It’s hard to know.
I am 100% convinced that there are “famous” people who spread vaccine misinformation and anti-vaxx rhetoric but are secretly vaccinated. I have a couple specific people in mind.
I am also 100% convinced there are “famous” people who tout vaccination and even try to guilt people in to contributing to herd immunity but are secretly unvaccinated.
We will find out who some of those people are and they will need to do some explaining. But, for the biggest names, it won’t make much of a difference because their target audiences are baked in and shown themselves willing to overlook some pretty big things.
Slides 32 and 35 seem to be of particular interest. Per million second dose vaccinations over 120 days in males 12-17 years (the worst risk / benefit group):
- Risk:
- 56-69 myocarditis cases.
- Benefit:
- 5,700 COVID-19 cases prevented.
- 215 hospitalizations prevented.
- 71 ICU admissions prevented.
- 2 deaths prevented.
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This seems most likely to occur when it is easy to cheat and one is unlikely to get caught cheating. For example, a store says “mask required if not vaccinated” but relies on the honor system.
Thank you. I have a son in the 18-24 age group who will be receiving his second dose on Saturday. He is currently living 1,200 miles away from family (summer internship). Based on these slides it looks like his risk of harm from vaccine-related heart problems is roughly four times that original number but still very small.
More concerned about the risk/benefit trade off. For my son’s age and gender group, per million 2nd dose vaccinations:
Risk: 45-56 myocarditis cases
Benefit (120 days out):
12,000 Covid-19 cases prevented
530 Hospitalizations prevented
127 ICU admissions prevented
3 deaths prevented
If I’m understanding this correctly, 45-56 young men age 18-24 (presumably healthy) are predicted to experience 2nd-dose vaccine-related myocarditis in order to prevent 127 ICU admissions and three deaths of others of unknown underlying conditions/comorbidities over the following four months. Is this an acceptable risk/benefit trade-off, for those of you who are used to seeing this sort of analysis w/r/t new treatments and medicines? Per the CDC data, about 21% of those hospitalized for vaccine-related heart inflammation are not yet recovered/out of the hospital. No age or gender breakdown there, but young men are experiencing the bulk of the inflammatory reactions.
@evergreen5 I’m interested to know what that committee member doc actually said about slide 39.
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Sorry, I didn’t hear which person. It was a male doc early in time for comments from people who I presumed were on the committee (not the public comment). It’s quite possible that they were some sort of stakeholders rather than committee members, though it was definitely a doc.
Myocarditis has been reported as a rare effect of COVID-19 infection. Perhaps the spike protein is itself a risk (since it can attach to ACE-2 receptors), regardless of whether or not it is attached to a replicating virus (though the latter would presumably be worse if that is the case)?
Could this also be the case for blood clot oddities associated with both COVID-19 and the J&J - Janssen vaccine?
This lying discussion is interesting. The idea that someone would lie about getting the vaccine makes sense to me - lying that you did NOT get the vaccine seems less likely (IMO) but it takes all types of people to make a world.
Our retail stores rely on the honor system - if you are not vaccinated you are required to wear a mask but no one checks. My youngest’s employer just removed the mask requirement for employees (mostly teens and young adults) if you can show that you are fully vaccinated. ETA: she said most people on her shift tonight were maskless. In our county the number at age 12+ who have received at least one dose is 75%. However, practically everyone out and about in our local city is maskless. It’s possible that the not-fully-vaccinated are staying home but it’s also possible that people are lying - going out after only one shot or just going out w/o vaccination at all. Infection numbers continue to plummet - by 94% from two months ago. Deaths, however, have only declined by 50%. So the fatality rate has increased from something like half a percent to over 4%!
A lot of things are possible. I don’t know much about the spike protein, though nothing would surprise me on a molecular level with things not working as originally assumed. I would also point out that the site of exposure between normal covid and the vaccine are different, with different typical immune system reactions from those different types of tissues. The blood clot oddities I think are more associated with an undesirable immune reaction.
Vaccine reluctance because a person doesn’t understand how an mRNA vaccine works, because it’s new and was developed quickly, or because a person belongs to a community that has historically been used to test new drugs, or such, are legitimate fears. When people post them, they are discussed, and, in many cases, people with these fears are referred to resources to help them understand the vaccine, look through the data on safety issues, known or suspected, and how common they are.
However, when a person come on, posting crazy or downright evil conspiracy theories, and demands that the conspiracy theories be treated as though they are facts, then they will get the pushback that they deserve.
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