<p>I don't see anything lazy in colleges' offeirng scholarships to vals and sals. offering scholarships to those that the high schools select as their top students seems to me to make a lot of sense, and seems, too, to be fair.</p>
<p>As for the OP's D's situation: The lesson in this is to find out all of the facts well in advance about situations like this. I understand that since the D was the OP's eldest child, the OP and the D didn't think to find out how the val and sal were selected.</p>
<p>Based on what I saw at my kids' schools, the students who get such honors now find out the system early and do what it takes to get the honors, which at one of my kids' high schools, meant one kid took extra courses over the summer at the local community college in order to edge ahead of her rival (those courses added weight to her gpa).</p>
<p>I think it's typical for the final class rank to be based on first semester grades. </p>
<p>I'm not writing as the parent of a kid who ever was any where near being val or sal. As H said when he offered to serve on the committee creating the rules for vals and sals, "We have no dog in this race." </p>
<p>Sounds like your D has done a great job in high school and you both have lots to be proud of. Except for folllowing the good advice here about how she may still get those class ranked based scholarships, time to move on about this situation.</p>
<p>palermo: Our school did not give extra weight for those things. However, I do see some merit in giving extra weight. The schools want to give opportunities to kids to expand in areas other than books. In schools where no extra weight is given, many GPA chasing kids would never participate in band, sports, dance or arts. The OP is sadly mistaken when he/she says,"and to top it off the additional honors class is honors band!".</p>
<p>Sadly he/she thinks that more intelligence and hard work is required in many of the junk 'honors' classes. Actually, the way I read it is that he/she was the one who was trying to game the system. I know many parents who would spend money and time for private musical training like piano or violin, but would not let their kids participate in HS band or orchestra - they are giant time sucking activities. Parents think it restiricts their ability to load up on honors or AP classes.</p>
<p>Agree with dstark's post #16. I would also notify the school board, since it's a district-wide policy. It's possible that not all the decision makers at the school and district level understand the implications of the policy and would appreciate the additional information. Every public school I know takes an accounting at the end of each year on the amount of scholarship dollars awarded its students. If your daughter loses a competitive edge because of the policy, the school (and district) lose, too.</p>
<p>If it's not too late, I'd ask the GC to attach a note to the transcript explaining the ranking system and her "qualified" #2 rank. Can't hurt, and might actually help, her chance for the scholarships.</p>
<p>I also wish they would do away with the ranking. I would hate to see students not take a theater course or a photography course or band because it hurts their ranking. It's kind of sad that they are coerced to choose courses based on their affect on class rank when it is a time in their lives to discover who they are and maybe find some hidden talents. I don't know the answer, but the current system could use tweaking.</p>
<p>Ok, today's a brighter day - in fact the sun is out!</p>
<p>I am the OP and here are some thoughts...</p>
<p>I am NOT knocking band!!! Many of D friends (including the #1 and #2 students) have expressed that the only difference in reg band and honors band is a short research paper during the year and place for honors students to hang their had as opposed to regular band. D choose to play piano at age 9 and has excelled and I get the bonus of hearing her practice daily at home and hear her beautiful music : )
Like many classes, you can put a lot of effort into band, and I applaud students who make the choice to make beautiful music...</p>
<p>Yes, the loss of $$ is the biggest disappointment - in our house $2500 or more means alot!</p>
<p>Our school too puts out a list of top 10 students to the newspaper - has them ranked according to GPA in that paper. It seems very odd to me that D will be in the 3rd picture (with a proud smile on her face!) but her GPA will be listed as higher than the #2 person. Just odd for me to understand.</p>
<p>Because of this type of listing in the paper and such, who would have ever given a thought (the first time through the school system) that the ranks would go any other way? Not me!</p>
<p>On the lighter side, one of my D biggest strengths is public speaking. She excels writing speeches and presenting - hence her desire to enter a communications field where she can fine tune this skill. Darn, she was really looking forward to being able to give one of those speeches with her peers! The bright side of this is that she is Student Council President so she will still get to address her peers and their families - and she will shine...and I will be proud and crying in the audience!</p>
<p>Thanks again for support listed here and suggestions - that's why I posted and we will mull over any suggestions given.</p>
<p>"Many of D friends (including the #1 and #2 students) have expressed that the only difference in reg band and honors band is a short research paper during the year and place for honors students to hang their had as opposed to regular band."</p>
<p>abasket, you still don't get it. What is the difference between regular class and honors class? Few extra assignments or a project?</p>
<p>I didn't read through the whole thread but this is how our h.s. determines GPA and class rank:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>For an A, regular classes are worth 4.0. honors - 4.5, AP - 5.0.</p></li>
<li><p>Class rank and GPA are based on grades in six classes plus gym/health. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>It is possible to take a seventh class (with no lunch) and many music students do this. My daughter took art and band all through school, and she would not have been able to fit in both with only six classes. The class designated as the seventh class does not count toward GPA, although it is graded. For the very top students (who are getting all or almost all A's in AP/honors), the seventh class could actually lower their average if it was counted, since music and art classes are not honors at our school.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Val and sal are picked at the end of the third marking period of senior year.</p></li>
<li><p>Final class rank (based on grades up to and including fourth marking period) are shown on report card after graduation. For most people, this is irrelevant, but my daughter actually ended up transferrring colleges, which was not planned, of course, and her final grades and rank did become relevant as part of the transfer applications. (A warning against the possible consequences of too much senioritis, perhaps?)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>When entering HS we were given a handbook about all the rules in the school which included grading, weighting and the rules for val/sal. I sat down my son and explained the realities of what he had to do to gain this ranking. I included grade grubbing, that a 97 counted for more than a 98, the intensity and hard feelings sometimes occuring between the top candidates, the subjective nature of grading especially in humanities courses, getting a harder teacher than another top student due to scheduling etc. I explained it is a game he could win but that some of the results would not be under his control. He chose not to "play". He excelled in school but never sweated the 97, left classes early for soccer games and didn't have to worry, laughed at his stupid errors on tests and quickly forgot about them. A stress free time in HS. I think he was #4. </p>
<p>My point: you have to know the game and its rules going in, you have to be willing to fight for every point while knowing that you may wind up losing because you had one test in 4 years where you got a 97 instead of a 98. You could lose the top spot by .005 pts.</p>
<p>My take: Our kids are under enough stress. This is an unhealthy fight for an honor that means little in the long run. Shame on colleges for making this a criteria for money. If enough High Schools have 10 or 20 vals. maybe this will finally all go away.</p>
<p>If class rank/valedictorian status is determined by unweighted GPA alone, it gives an advantage to those who take less rigorous courses.</p>
<p>If class rank/valedictorian status is determined by weighted GPA or by some combination of GPA and number of honors/AP courses, it puts pressure on the very top kids to go out of their way to avoid taking unweighted courses, even if those courses are in areas of their special interest (e.g., choir, theater). </p>
<p>In addition, focusing too much on class rank can create problems in school systems that have magnet programs. For example, my daughter attends a high school where three-fourths of the students are drawn from the immediate neighborhood and are in the regular program, while one-fourth are in an elite, selective magnet program that draws from the entire county. The presence of those magnet kids inevitably has a detrimental effect on the class ranks of the regular program kids (and, for that matter, most of the magnet kids). On the other hand, kids with magnet-level qualifications who choose not to attend any of our county's academic magnet programs and who go to their neighborhood high schools instead would end up with inflated class ranks (because much of the cream has been skimmed off the top and into the magnets).</p>
<p>Our school system does not send class ranks to colleges, and although some high schools in the system have valedictorians, my daughter's school does not. Everyone survives.</p>
<p>Why shame on colleges for making val, sal a criterion for giving scholarships? At least that way, the scholarships are given due to some kind of criterion that people can understand and have reasonable chances to aspire to if they have the motivation and brains to have a chance at being val, sal. Seems very fair to me (a mom whose kids had no chances of getting such scholarships).</p>
<p>When it comes to scholarships given for things like leadership, ECs, character, service, talent, academic excellence, those attributes are far more difficult to measure, and students have less of a chance of knowing where they stand in the competition. While these are the kind of scholarships that my kids aspired to, it was far more difficult for them to know their chances than for someone who was in their high school's competition to be val or sal.</p>
<p>Frankly, I'm just happy that some people have a chance to get merit scholarships. I don't complain about the schools' criteria.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I also was interested to hear how other schools determine Val/Sal spots. If you'd like to share, I"d be curious to hear.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Our school uses weighted GPAs and honors classes count more than non-honors classes so your daughter would have been #3 in our system. OTOH only "academic" classes are counted, so the band might have been discounted - we don't have honors band either. I've never heard of ties in our system because the grading is on a 100 point scale. FWIW - count me in the camp that says that weighted GPA is the way to go.</p>
<p>I like the idea of seeing if the gc can tell colleges that your daughter was #2 in GPA.</p>
<p>BTW, since only "academic" courses count - our students don't feel obliged to miss out on arts courses.</p>
<p>I think American high schools should not solely use honors/AP classes and GPA to determine class rank. Instead of using class rank Val/Sal the schools should create some new titles to honor stellar students at graduation time. The schools can nominate top 1-3 percent of students to have the same title. A good nomination system should include student performance in extracurricular activities that make the school look better than other schools. Achievement in music, arts, sports, math and science competitions should be included in the nomination. The abandon of Val/Sal titles will relieve pressure from unhealthy competition.</p>
<p>Val/Sal is a competition (battle) for 14yr olds that goes on for 4 years.There is one winner and one consolation prize at the end and may be separated by only hundredths of a point. Some of the criteria force your child into taking classes they are not interested in, foregoing other classes/activities they might enjoy,crying and stressing over a 97 instead of a 98 and then begging the teacher to change their grade, instead of going to lunch doing extra credit for Mr. x's class to get a step up on the competition, studying for hours on end, and on and on. Every decision those children make in their 4 years is determined by the standard put across in their school to win this award. Many of the grades are subjective or based on teachers biases.
How can anyone support this. I guess if a college wants to support cut throat competitiveness, win at all costs attitudes they are entitled. I think it is a crime. WHAT ARE WE DOING TO OUR CHILDREN??? This is so wrong and so unhealthy and so against "learning". Obviously, it's a hot point :).</p>
<p>As an adult would you enter a 4 year competition like this?</p>
<p>My oldest's school did not rank, just listed in the top 5% etc. and the class president gave the graduation speech. My second's school did rank and the rules came home to the parents at freshman orientation. I don't have a copy but it did involve honors courses and GPA.
I can understand the frustration and disappointment in finding out the rules at the very end and losing out on the merit money. I wonder if she can share the #2 spot?
Congratulations to your daughter.</p>
<p>I sympathize with the potential loss of merit aid, although the intense focus on being first or second seems kind of odd to me since in my state the state-school tuition rebate is keyed to top 5 percent and 10 percent, plus SAT scores. I can see that some schools striving to improve the USNWR ranking might focus heavily on getting students in the top 10 percent of their class to enroll, but as far as I can recall, there is no credit given for enrollment of vals/sals.</p>
<p>But more to the point I don't think the OP is doing her daughter any favor by focusing quite so closely on the perceived injustice. There are always going to be things that don't work out quite the way they should, and there are also very likley to be all sorts of things in the background that one doesn't know. All three kids (and I'm sure many more) deserve a lot of credit for work well done, and in terms of life skills/social interactions there is not much point harboring resentment.</p>
<p>"How can anyone support this. I guess if a college wants to support cut throat competitiveness, win at all costs attitudes they are entitled. I think it is a crime. WHAT ARE WE DOING TO OUR CHILDREN??? This is so wrong and so unhealthy and so against "learning". Obviously, it's a hot point .</p>
<p>As an adult would you enter a 4 year competition like this?"</p>
<p>Such a competiton wouldn't excite or attract me. However, I'm also not attracted to sports competitions, which are just as demanding and have in my opinion fewer guaranteed rewards than do academic competitions. Even if students don't make val or sal, they still presumably get excellent grades and have good educational options as well as a lot of information in their heads that no one can take away. They also haven't risked the type of injuries and other problems (such as eating disorders) that happen to many who are in sports.</p>
<p>So...I don't see anything wrong with high schools having vals, sals, students competing for those honors or colleges rewarding the winners with merit aid.</p>
<p>No matter how the calculations are made, some worthy, smart, hard working students won't get the awards, but that doesn't mean that the competitions are useless. With most competitive options, some people willl win, some won't.</p>
<p>What troubles me about this thread is how the OP posted that her D got "shafted." I don't think that perspective is a good one. Better to congratulate her D on her D"s accomplishments, and then to move on without bitterness or putting down the val or sal. Such behavior would be a gift to the D that would serve the D well for a lifetime because she surely will face other situations in which she worked hard, but doesn't get the honors that some may feel she deserved. That's life.</p>
<p>The only 4 yr. competitions in sports are in the Olympic's and there are many medals and competitions won during those 4 years by the athletes. </p>
<p>4 years of a teenagers' life...one winner...one consolation prize for the loser (I assume #2 feels this way). The psychological/ health risks inherent in this are numerous. I'm done :)</p>
<p>I don't know about cut-throat competition, but competition itself is not necessarily a bad thing; in fact, some kids thrive on it. I switched my younger son to a more competitive school, because had he stayed in his "everyone has access to AP's" public high school, he would have some serious issues by now, no doubt. It's a shame that there is not more *choice * for parents to choose the environment that's best for their own children.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I, personally, would not get worked up if my kid were ranked #3 instead of #2: I don't think this sends a very great message to the child, frankly (as northstarmom said, above).</p>