Val/Salutatorian - D is getting shafted!

Parents Forum
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<p>

IMHO, getting "worked up" over injustice of any kind is ususally the thing that leads to change. One can address injustice and still keep feelings/actions in perspective. When everyone sits back and accepts the status quo, nothing will change. </p>

<p>I definitely try to encourage (by example) my children to pinpoint injustices and address them. And that is a great message to anyone.</p>

<p>It's all about perspective....you address it (which sometimes means also accepting it) and then you move on. Only if you dwell on it incessantly does it becomes a problem and a "bad message."</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>sax, I think you pretty much summarized what the competition for val/sal has become. The only part you left out was getting a bogus classification as physically disabled to avoid taking an unweighted gym class (which would lower gpa). I don't think it was supposed to be like this. It has evolved this way, which has prompted many schools to eliminate ranking and the competition for val/sal. </p>

<p>But what I find even more objectionable than the 4yr cutthroat competition itself is a school administration that sets this game in play and then changes the rules at the last minute to meet an administrator's subjective view of who is a more deserving student.</p>

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<p>Way to go, Berurah! You reallyknow how to hit the nail on the head. I, also feel for you! It hurts even more when it is your own child who sees the situation and knows hat nothing can be done to correct it. There is nothing wrong with feeling wounded. It has happened to all of us. Is it unfair to your child? Yes. Have that cry, and then weigh all the wonderful offers sure to come your way, and hope that that 2500 will be covered in other ways. Someone like your D deserves it. And revel in all the terrific opprotunities that come your D's way.
Our district weighs Honors, AP, etc., all evenly, but more heavily than Regulars. Our vals and sals have GPA's in excess of 6. (90+ in Reg = 4.0, 91 = 4.1, etc.) and every single point counts. In many ways this seems more fair, not weighing a 90 of 94 the same as a 99. On the other hand, kids were doing their best to shop for the easier teachers in order to get those .2 that they wouldn't from the other teachers. No matter what, there will always be people who game the system for what feel is more important. For you, you did what you felt was important, and that should make you feel good. I find that people who do things for the love of it wind up doing better in life than those who try to game it, because they eventually get caught, and get in over their heads. Be grateful that your D did and you did what was right for you, and don't worry about what others do. Someday, your D will outshine them in so many ways, and isn't that what all this is about - the road to a great adult and life? This won't be first life's disappointment, and believe me, in a few years, it won't matter that much, anymore. And send that newpaper page to the schools - let them see how GPA affects class rank, along with a letter from the guidance counselor. It won't hurt, and maybe, just maybe, it might help. Good luck to you both! And vent here anytime you want! Many of us have soft shoulders to fall on, those of us who have been in the same boat in one way or another.</p>

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<p>^^ejr~</p>

<p>I was just speaking in defense of the OP...this is not my D's situation this year, although this DID affect my son two years ago, and that is why I feel passionately about this subject. I am just at a loss to understand those who fault the OP for having these feelings....they're very normal, and in most cases, as I said above, productive in effecting change. </p>

<p>~b.</p>

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<p>There was a discussion about this on the students' forum a while ago, specifically about what schools are trying to change val/sal to (ie having clubs and sports included). I understand the frustration of having a person who only concentrates on school and books being val while ones who opted to do extracurriculars aren't, but I don't believe that is always the case. In fact, during my four years of high school, none of the vals/sals have been bookworms who don't care about their school, on the contrary they are all extremely active both in the school and the community. But, val/sal is an ACADEMIC award, not a "most well-rounded" award. </p>

<p>To illustrate, last year we had 5 or 6 vals (still using unweighted GPA, gr) and 1 val. All were NHS members and were very active in the club both in NHS activities and community service. A couple were in sports and excelled in those areas. And, of course, they participated and served as leadership in other clubs. </p>

<p>Our list of vals/sals haven't come out this year (first week after spring break), but I know the top 3 unweighted. One guy and I have taken extemely challenging courses, although I have taken more AP's than him but that's ok. We are both very active in NHS and he is on the drumline in band. I'm in leadership in two other clubs and serve at my church each weekend. The other student has eben on the varsity soccer team 3 or 4 years and is also a great student. Yet, he has not challenged himself near the level we have, and has specifically opted out of our AP Eng classes because of the difficulty of getting an A (he actually told this to me, just fyi). </p>

<p>We do have a problem with our system (which will be changed to being based off of weighted GPA the year after me) since we use unweighted GPA's. Our AP Eng Lit/Lang teacher is a legend and everyone knows it's next to impossible to get an A in the class. (Luckily I was one of two that earned it last year). But, MANY students who are #1 unweighted at the end of their sophmore and then junior years do not take her class (even though she is an amazing teacher), just because they know they can't get an A. In the end, I'm so glad I challenged myself and took her class because I have learned way more than the honors students. </p>

<p>To the poster who said there isn't much difference between honors and AP, then I guess either your honors are harder or your AP's are easier, because at my school the difference between regular and honors, and honors and AP is appauling. The difference is so large you can't believe. For example, In AP US History we constantly did outlines and extensive tests, while honors did worksheets and watched movies (I don't want to know what regular did). The difference in English classes is comparable to that. </p>

<p>Thus, even though I have known since freshman year that my weighted GPA wouldn't count, I've always strived to do my best and challenge myself. And I think that's what kids in AP classes want (for the most part). I did opt out of chorus my junior year for AP Art History because it wasn't weighted and because I love art and it is an amazing teacher, and it ended up being a great choice because it was the best class I've taken in high school and I've learned so much. </p>

<p>This is competitive, but life is competitive. At my school it's not an "I'
ll hate you if you beat me" competitiveness, it just pushes you to do your best instead of settling for mediocrity. I know that I really thrive on competition and that is when my best comes out.</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to address these issues from a student's perspective. </p>

<p>To the OP, I'm glad you support your daughter so much; since the beginning this has been my goal, not my parent's and though they support me, I know they will love me and be proud of me as long as I do my best. I am glad to see you have the same opinion. Unfortunately, many schools decide to hide these methods until the very end, leaving top students bewildered (I still don't know exactly how they will do it this year, although I presume it's the same). I don't think they understand the difference it can make, money-wise. If anything, you may want to just send an email or letter to the principal telling him the confusion that resulted, and ask that for the next group the administration makes it clear what the criteria will be. That way, at least other years will know and avoid this confusion and disappointment.</p>

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<p>When the guidance counselor told us as my daughter registered for freshman classes, that taking an German course through a distance education program would mean a lower GPA because they couldn't give it honors weighting, I knew this competition was not something I wanted to spend the next four years thinking about everytime D had an educational decision to make!</p>

<p>Our school ranks, but for val they see what is the lowest GPA of someone with all As is (could be as low as 4.0 with no honors or AP classes, but never is) and then everyone with GPA that high or higher gets named Val. So we often have 20 Vals (but the school has 4500 students). On the other hand it eliminates the "but I took harder classes" vs. "but I took what I could handle" arguements.</p>

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<p>To OP - if the colleges in question are small private schools, a letter from GC explaining the situation and stating that your daughter has #2 GPA might do the trick.</p>

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<p>I didn't mean to offend, beurah, but I just can't relate.</p>

<p>Yes, my son has expressed that there are kids loosing sleep over whether they get a 97 or a 98 in a class in order to be #1 or #2 or top five, or top ten. I told him I'd be more than happy if he's in top 10% (which would be around 35 kids). Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on one's view, they limit AP classes to 25 kids, so he works to be within the top 25. Classes are weighted, so kids who take higher level classes, and do well, are automatically in the top 25. I think the decile system, if classes are weighted, is not a bad one. On the other hand, I think kids should have a choice: if they want to work to be #1, fine, if not; that's fine too. </p>

<p>Of course there is a measure of randomness in these rankings. My son understands this, and I've always taught him that whether he is #5 or #20 does not reflect any inherent lack of worth, nor does it necessarily mean these kids are "smarter" (although maybe they are :)). This is how life works. Not fair, as they say. :)</p>

<p>A system which does not weight and yet still ranks makes no sense to me. In that case, I would tell my son to abandon any idea of ranking in his mind, and take the classes that interest him, which also challenge him--period.</p>

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<p>

Oh, I wasn't offended at all....just offering a different view. :)</p>

<p>I do understand what you're saying. As I see it, the problem lies with some colleges still relying heavily on these rankings (and particularly for merit $) when there is so much opportunity to game these things. If the colleges would quit giving so much weight to class rank, the problem would take care of itself, IMHO.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>Tarhunt, if you are still here -- what is wrong with decile ranking? (I may regret asking this, but I'm really curious).</p>

<p>This competition for val/sal is so foreign to me. It just so happens that my daughter's class is remarkably uncompetitive. It's almost weird. We happen to know who the val is because my daughter is friends with her, but I know most of the kids and parents have no idea who it is (and the school doesn't make the val public). We have a general idea of who is in the top 15, but not the exact order, and the kids don't talk about it. They would get eaten alive if they went to some of these more competitive high schools.</p>

<p>Anyway, our val is chosen purely by highest GPA -- no weighting done. I am puzzled by the OP's HS method, since I thought GPA was most important and to have the second highest GPA but get a rank of third is strange to me. But if this is the published system, that has been around for all the years they've been in HS, then that's what it is. And to change it now might mean taking away a scholarship that #2 has gotten, which one could argue wouldn't be fair either.</p>

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<p>Hereshoping posted in #68 above: "A system which does not weight and yet still ranks makes no sense to me." </p>

<p>Same here, until I saw how it played out in our community, which is why I posted #34 above (p.3). </p>

<p>An unweighted GPA system is rather primitive and diverges from meritocratic thinking. It does, however, motivate and inspire a different group of kids than those aiming for the uber-competitive unis and colleges. </p>

<p>It has this underlying message, "Work HARD at whatever level you choose, and that is its own reason for reward." I knew kids with less intellectual flash who sweated much harder to get their A's in a regular course than my own kid had to work to get an A in an AP. I think there should be a reward for their tenacity. </p>

<p>In a school and community where it seemed as though "all" the academic rewards went to a select few, the Val/Sal competition was accessible to everyone in the high school. There was equal opportunity and some new faces had the pride of being in the top-10 rank of the school. </p>

<p>Once we understood the school's system (soph year for our eldest), our response within our family was identical to yours, hereshoping: "In that case, I would tell my son to abandon any idea of ranking in his mind, and take the classes that interest him, which also challenge him--period."</p>

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<p>I agree with post #31: "fault the college, not the hs"</p>

<p>About setting limits like being #1 or #2: appears to be the fairest way to award a scholarship, but actually I don't think so. Sounds more like it's the easiest most noncontroversial way to pad your admission statistics, especially for a college that doesn't normally enroll many vals or sals. I guess that's the whole idea, but still...</p>

<p>So give #2 the extra $2500 but not to a #3 who may be clearly "better" if you include SAT, EC, all those other things that make an applicant desirable? What about a brilliant #8 from a top competitive hs? Takes more time and work to look at the whole applicant but I believe that's fairer (more fair?).</p>

<p>OP sorry about the whole thing and loss of $2500 (which is actually $10,000!).
I think your use of the word "shafted" is mild given you'd just found this out. Was this one of your daughter's top choices? She sounds amazing---congratulations!</p>

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<p>We had a similar situation--D. and one other student have the same GPA, and although the school does not weight GPA for honors classes, they apply some sort of tiebreaker formula that gives an advantage to students with more advanced coursework. </p>

<p>In this situation, the other student's parent is on the school board. D took some classes at the university while the other student did not, and last fall when D. was filling out college apps the counselor told D. she had yet to add D's college work into the ranking formula. The result was that the counselor report showed D. as #3 and other kid as #2, but for the "official" rank published at the end of the 7th semester, the places are reversed.</p>

<p>So D. gets the recognition at the end of the year, but the school that both applied to in November was told other kid is #2 and D. is #3.</p>

<p>Some might think that this had something to do with the school board and the family, but I believe it was just a harried counselor. I doubt it will make any difference to the college that D. is #3 vs. #2.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And to top it off, students #1 and #2 are both in her AP Calculus class and are likely to get a "B" this third quarter, while D should have an A (thereby raising her GPA even more).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I found myself rather taken aback by competitive culture implicit in this remark.</p>

<p>When I was in high school, I certainly had no idea of my classmate's grades, even after they were issued, let alone before the marking period ended!</p>

<p>Grades were private information, not public information. We simply didn't go around talking about our grades. I don't see why grades need to be other students' business.</p>

<p>There was a val and a sal at graduation, but nobody seemed to talk in advance about who they would turn out to be. Personally, I was surprised and happy to discover a couple days before graduation that I was ranked 4th in my class of 396, but it was no particular big deal. I have absolutely no idea how great the differences were between me and the next student above or below. </p>

<p>I think Tarhunt's observation that class rank results are about as meaningful as a cross-country race in which different contestants all take different routes with different terrains and different milages covered was a very apt comparison.</p>

<p>If some donor wanted to give scholarships to the students who finished first and second in such a weird cross-country race, that's a rather silly thing to do, but it's a free country, and I suppose it's the donor's prerogative to do this, just as there's a donor who gives a scholarship to the kid who designs the best prom-dress made out of duct tape.</p>

<p>The fact is that in life there are many arbitrary and unfair distinctions made and many opportunities out there. Instead of wasting energy bemoaning the inevitable imperfections in the grading system, why not use the time and energy otherwise used in venting about this to look for a well-paid summer job or write an application for a scholarship, etc. </p>

<p>I didn't win any scholarships reserved for vals or sals (I don't even know if there were any in those days), but I did get a good need-based financial aid package and--instead of wasting time gossiping about what grades my classmates were going to get in their classes, I worked 20 hours a week in a part-time job during my senior year of high school and saved money for college expenses that way.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/education/05rank.html?ex=1299214800&en=223efcce010d3ea5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/education/05rank.html?ex=1299214800&en=223efcce010d3ea5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Just one of numerous articles. "40% of all high schools have stopped ranking or stopped giving info to colleges" <a href="http://epm.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/52/4/1047%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://epm.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/52/4/1047&lt;/a> here one study on rank vs. SAT vs. achievement tests as indicators of college achievement</p>

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<p>"The only 4 yr. competitions in sports are in the Olympic's and there are many medals and competitions won during those 4 years by the athletes. "</p>

<p>Not true at all. Athletes constantly compete to be first in their sport, to be first string, to get state and national recognition, to set records, to have their teams win championships, games, meets, etc. They devote their lives to besting the competition.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
IMHO, getting "worked up" over injustice of any kind is ususally the thing that leads to change.

[/quote]
I just don't see how this was an injustice. Reading over all these responses, it is obvious that there is no one right way to calculate Val/Sal status. This school chose to use a weighted system, just like many other schools. In this instance, the rule worked against her daughter. That does not make it an injustice. The rule of using a weighted system is a common one, and it's an attempt by the school to encourage students to challenge themselves in their coursework. No rule works perfectly 100% of the time, but that doesn't make the rule unjust.</p>

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<p>NSM: The point I am trying to make is that this is one prize for 4 years of work.Valedvictorian: 1 prize after 4 years. 50 yard dash:1 winner after four years. That's all I'm trying to state.</p>

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<p>my older daughters school didn't have V/S.
Everyone had an opportunity to talk, sing, dance, speak.
My D sang Beautiful by Carole King for her parting words to her classmates. :)</p>

<p>Her sisters school ranks, but doesn't weight and one year had 44 vals!</p>

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<p>Sax,
But I'm saying that getting various sports awards depends, too, on years of hard work.
Also, if a person is Val or Sal, they certainly get more rewards for their work than just being designated val or sal. Depending on how they parlayed their excellent academic records, they could have gotten various merit scholarships, college acceptances, internships and many other opportunities and honors. In addition, presumably they got knowledge that no one can take away from them.</p>