I’ve been accepted as a transfer to these two schools from a top 30 public school. I want to do BME and Premed, and I’m still fairly undecided on which path I want to pursue more. Which school gives me a good, employable BME degree while also allowing me to maintain a good enough GPA for med school? I’m not opposed to Evanston as a place, but I prefer the weather and social structure in Nashville and Vanderbilt. Where should I go?
I had to make the same decision last year and ended up at Vanderbilt (different discipline, however). Hopefully someone with more knowledge about BME will comment, but what I will say is that the social atmosphere at Vanderbilt is everything that I hoped for and more. I also got into UPenn (as did a few others I met at orientation), but would’ve had to live off campus–which was a deal breaker for me.
@mmballer
Vanderbilt. You don’t prefer NU’s weather and social feel, and also STEM at NU is notoriously challenging especially in pre-health courses. They will both be rough when it comes to BME, but the associated classes with BME that will also double as your pre-health requirements have quite the reputation at NU for not only the tough grading that STEM at most schools is known for, but unusually tough content in many cases from the stuff I saw, they pretty much live up to the reputation, especially chemistry courses). If you weren’t pre-health, I would give NU a second look because the structure of STEM programs and the toughness may do some good, but if pre-health, you kind of don’t need all of that. You just need courses in the pre-health core to be good enough (as in tougher than most non-competitive universities) to train you for the MCAT/medical school. I will say that hardly no school will make it easy for an engineering major to upkeep a high GPA for medical school, so don’t have rosy ideas of one school being particularly advantageous in that area. Typically pre-meds are advised to steer clear of applied sciences because of the heavy STEM courseload it incurs per semester versus most say…natural sciences majors.
Go to Vanderbilt. Enjoy the location if you dig it. It is only four years of your life at one of the greatest institutions in the USA. there is no reason to choose NWestern over Vandy in your situation. You will have to weather the storms of grading in STEM and BME courses in either school but that is a normative challenge and cannot be avoided by choosing one over the other. Vandy is a surprisingly cozy university in some of the smaller majors in particular and in engineering for sure. You will get support as well as challenges. Back to “weather.” Go where your soul smiles to put yourself through this educational chapter in life.
Thanks for the advice! By choosing Vandy over Northwester, would I be passing up a significant academic upgrade?
Well, I went to high school in Illinois so I do realize Chicago is a great place to go to work. I personally do not believe the marketplace in large cities values a Northwestern degree over a Vanderbilt degree. Now maybe in Economics or in something special? I have been to Evanston and it is a nice campus and certainly a privilege to be there. There is really no way to escape rigor at either institution. Speaking for Vandy, and for all schools where academically gifted students are the norm throughout the school…each of you now has to “differentiate”. By this I mean that my Vandyson had a 36 ACT Math but is not really gifted in STEM or math or Science or engineering. You are at a whole new starting line my friend.
It is now truly all about finding your own strengths and moving forward on them at your own rate. Your career path is known for some disappointing grades for kids who had 4.4 averages in high school. But the long road is the one you are traveling so get some perspective. Now is the time to be clever and shrewd and to realize it is totally doable at either institution. You have to commit to your 2 years of basic requirements and then really give your department your full attention.
You must realize that your engineering department is a tight little subculture of its own. They know how to support and how to instruct. Vandy does have a “plus” that I know Duke didn’t offer. Vandy -only with the approval of your academic advisor…will let you take a course a second time if you dislike your grade and think you can pull it up. This is not casually done by any means but it is done. The new grade goes into your GPA and the old one stays viewable on your transcript. This will likely cost your family money if you can’t work it into your schedule. Many Vandy students will do this one time-- if their career path demands mastery of a course they flubbed first time out. Lots of students alter their directions half way through.
You really should not be so worried about grades right now. Obviously you have the goods. It is much more going to be about time management, discipline, learning style, finishing your frontal cortex growth (jk but also true) and giving yourself a LIFE to enjoy as a human being in flux for four years. Focus, and treating your work at Vandy like a 40 hour a week job should do it. You will learn specific things about yourself in the process. I realize that in the Midwest and other places Northwestern is a very heavy name and I have been there. Chicago is also an asset. But a lot of my adult life has been in Atlanta and in the Middle Atlantic states. Getting a first job as an engineer is important as so much of your life is on the job learning. Where do you hope to live? best of luck weighing it out.
Vandy for sure. My best friend is graduating with a BME degree from there next week and she’s starting medical school in August. But you have to be willing to work hard. Message me if you have any specific questions about the curriculum and I can ask her for you.
@mrnballer : NU is only a true upgrade if you were invited to some special program like the Integrated Science program. Otherwise, it is simply a tougher version of many other places (Again, they have tougher than normal content/exams in many courses and yet about the same grading practices as Vandy at NU…note that the stats are honestly negligible between the two and also NU seems to have a different culture when it comes to STEM…one of the more intense places, somewhat like its city-located friend…). Doesn’t necessarily mean it is better. I like the concept of academic rigor in STEM, especially when it comes to problem solving, but wouldn’t exactly call standard lecture style teaching (section sizes are similar at both at the intro/intermediate level) + extra intensity an upgrade (in fact it may be the opposite because in this scenario, often graduate students are left to pick up the slack of all the students not reached in lecture which will be a lot in the case of a really tough course at any school) unless you really seek academic challenge regardless of the conditions. Vanderbilt is challenging, but seems to have a less tense/intense environment when it comes to the STEM culture overall, and even the social culture. Both will be rough if engineering, so definitely choose the one that clicked initially (you seem like you’d enjoy Vanderbilt more). Tense environment in STEM + “eww” weather isn’t my cup of tea and it doesn’t seem to be yours either. In addition, quarter system typically does not make an already challenging environment easier from what friends tell me.
If you are primarily worried about performance, it won’t make much of a difference as you’ll have to work hard at both. And as far as I’ve read/seen, NU appears quite stereotypical in the way they deliver courses throughout STEM, so I doubt you’ll see a true upgrade in that context unless you planned on using AP/IB credits and placing into more advanced science coursework early on (rare that pre-healths do this. At some schools they are advised to do so, but at many they are not) which is where NU is likely somewhat better (more advanced options at the beginning level for more talented students in more than just math and physics…they have lots of honors and accelerated courses). Again, I would just choose Vanderbilt…academic difference is hardly existent or even relevant in this context. If you claimed you were ultra ambitious and wanted a PhD and wanted that early advanced coursework, then I would look harder at NU.
I visited NU recently and actually really liked it. I think I actually like it’s campus more than Vandy’s granted I visited on a day with nice weather. I really liked the faculty and engineering facilities and resources. The academics first, party second nature appealed to me, and it feels like Vandy has the opposite. However, if my end goal is med-school but still a career later on that still involves biotech, I feel like it might not be worth going through the stress and rigor of Northwestern. Vandy seems to have very similar offerings, just not as competitive. And I think I’ll just feel more laid back and have more fun. On the other hand again, Northwestern seems like too good of an opportunity to pass up. I’m very conflicted, but I think I’m leaning towards Vanderbilt.
Before you conclude that Northwestern is more stressful, find out if Vanderbilt really has less grade deflation. Your grades are more a function of the curves (how you compare against your peers) than how the materials are presented. Northwestern does have a top chemistry department and may have a slightly harder pre-med program as a result but everyone else in your class is presented with the same materials and takes the same tests anyway.
Find out what the premed placement rates are; ask people in their BME departments about their career placement (I heard Northwestern is a major feeder to Abbot Lab). These are important info you won’t find on this board.
@IWannaHelp : That is kind of tricky because I notice that among the most difficult STEM instructors that give exams (often at a higher level of theory covered in class or many curveballs) with low averages (centered in the 50s or 60s), succeeding on the curve is much more about talent(and/or experience) and studying EXTRA hard, whereas the competition is less of a factor when the instructor gives easier/medium exams (typically averages in mid 70s and higher, sometimes 80s) and grades don’t need much of a curve in the first place. Those who do a reasonable amount of work can generally expect a B+ (or a B at worst) on the B- curves typical at most schools(including elites like Vandy and NU), whereas in a very difficult course, the competition’s experience (and lesser so standardized testing experience- they design exams that don’t bias toward great standardized exam takers) and inclination to go above and beyond will make a huge difference. NU is known to have more of the latter situation which can be rough, because such instructors can bring most straight A almost perfect standardized testing student to their knees without a huge adjustment in study habits or some prior experience or a passion for the subject.
Vanderbilt has “deflation” or in reality, standard STEM grading practices, but it appears that most instructors even in chemistry (some of the course websites are up) shoot for exams that average in the 70s or a low 80 which means they will only have to curve a little or already be at a B-. They achieve their “deflated” grades by simply avoiding a curve. NU is more like my school where many instructors in the pre-med weedouts (especially in chemistry) design really rough exams (simply knowing exactly what they taught is not enough to score a raw B or C on the exams, you have to somehow understand it in a lot of depth to be able to deal with all the curveball/higher level items on the exam that require derivation or creativity. Seems Vanderbilt instructors use these items in much more moderation in both chemistry and biology exams. They are more likely to use more such items in something like physics) and then try to recenter the scores to B- if necessary. Different schools achieve standard STEM grades (minus Stanford, Brown, Yale, and some others who even have inflation in STEM) in different ways. Depends on the type you are. If seeing lower than normal grades on exams really effects one, then certain schools should be avoided like the plague. NU tends to be among those types. Also, curve grading in such difficult courses often leaves you wondering where exactly you stand especially when you aren’t near the top.
So I’ve found this stat. The average engineering GPA at NU is 3.2, while it’s a 2.7 at Vanderbilt. (I’m not 100% sure the vandy one is accurate but it’s what I heard.) I also heard that the Vanderbilt gpa is really low because many people are so focused on partying that they don’t have time for academics, and that if you don’t go out 3-4 times a week, you can manage to pull a 3.5. So there’s that. Is an average school GPA of 3.2 bad in terms of med-school especially in a competetive environment like NU. I think I should be able to get a 3.5 + at vandy, but not entirely sure at NU.
@mrnballer : You will be able to get it at either, you just need to stay focused. Also, I doubt it is a flat 2.7. Typically folks throw around that number because most large lecture and introductory courses curve to a B- which = 2.7 (not even Georgia Tech is that low. Tech ranges from like 2.9-3.15 depending on the year). Low 3 (like NU) or high 2’s is a more realistic number as grades increase as you progress through an engineering major (and differences can be partially attributed to how poorly freshmen do at some schools versus others). As courses get smaller, tests comprise less of the course grade and the course grade is more based on projects and other assignments where students typically do reasonably well on. You will take more of these than you will lower division weeders at any school. Typically the natural and physical sciences have the lowest grades. Engineering has the highest workload, but the sciences have the lowest grades as they are more high stakes exam oriented. Pick a school whose environment you liked more. If you are more into the social environment and like Vandy, go there. If you care more about academics and still prefer NU, then go there. This isn’t necessarily easy, but I would stop doing it by “average GPA” and things like that. By consistently worrying about it, you are basically stating that you worry about or plan to perform average, and that need not be the case. Everyone at these schools WAS talented at test taking and stuff in HS, but they both (as does any elite public or private) have a way of leveling the playing field and challenging the really talented students in a manner such that their ability to score well on an SAT/ACT becomes irrelevant. You’re only average if you intend to put in an average level of work or underestimate the expectations.
Also, the shade toward engineering students at Vanderbilt is likely untrue and just unnecessary. If there were to be anything to such an idea, it would be the Georgia Tech syndrome, where many of the engineering students accept the rigor and prestige of the degree and therefore set a lower bar for themselves believing (perhaps with a hint of accuracy) that an engineering degree need not have a high GPA attached to it to land a fruitful career (this I doubt is limited to Tech). However, what is noticeable is that pre-healths and those pursuing grad. school of course tend to aim much higher knowing that their next step is far more GPA sensitive.
So in summary, I’m worrying about GPA too much and I should do fine anywhere. The one other important aspect I’m looking at is time. Since Northwestern has a quarter system and more rigorous classes, it’ll be harder to find time outside of class for extra-curriculars and research especially since the hospital is a 35 minute bus ride from campus. I like the less cut-throat atmosphere at vandy, but I like how almost everyone at Northwestern is academically minded and I like their engineering more. I like their campus more but dislike the weather. There is hardly any separation between the two for me.
@mrnballer : I beg you to be careful about your perception of research and ECs what type you “need” to do. It need not be clinically oriented as a pre-health undergraduate student (or even if you became an MDPhD candidate, many do basic sciences research). If you wanted, to your convenience, you can use summers to shadow and volunteer near home or elsewhere as do many pre-healths. While on campus, you can add research (perhaps in BME or any basic sciences) that does not require you to work in a hospital or any site administering healthcare. Also, it says something if you cannot juggle your NU courses and focus on a few EC’s. You need not be an octopus at either school. It is okay to select some EC’s or projects you’ll really enjoy and go as deep as possible with those, having some impact on campus. Having your hands in a million pots will not really make you stand out as much. Perhaps winning an award like a Goldwater or some major award/fellowship on campus could help distinguish yourself and typically these people are deeply involved in a few things close to their interests or heart. Avoid the HS ratrace mentality as much as possible. Med. schools apparently have some expectations (shadowing and volunteering sometimes) and the rest is up to. And depth is better than breadth sometimes as you can talk about what you do much more in a personal statement or interview. And when you work on a couple of projects over several years, your passion or attachment for them shows. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that they’ll see: “Wow, that’s a lot of EC’s, how amazing!”. Impact and action matters more in terms of standing out. My pre-health friends with fewer but extremely well-done EC’s (many winning grants or scholarships/fellowships for their endeavors) had lots of success in either their MD or MDPhD applications even if they did not have a perfect GPA (most took very rigorous courses including more than one graduate course and all completed honors theses).
Also, do not underestimate the effect of rigorous academics at either Vandy or NU (should not be viewed as a chore that you need to get out of the way, make an A and then tend to EC’s. It can be hard, but try to seriously engage and get something out of them no matter how hard they are. The professors will often notice differences in attitudes of students towards learning). Taking these courses seriously and interacting with instructors in your most difficult courses if possible makes for wonderful mentoring oppurtunities and rec. letters no matter your career track. Instructors who give a difficult course and like your effort, will often end up giving amazing rec. letters for students who do not score an A. Instructors like to see that students care more about what they are learning than the grade. Amazing rec. letters (especially if you can get one from an instructor who you did not score A in but established a good relationship, demonstrated your passion and work ethic, etc) go a long way for some of those tippy top med. schools if you have the statistical goods. If you live up to what the instructor wrote about you in the interview, you’ll often be successful.
Strolling over to the medical complexes is one of Vanderbilt’s great assets. Again, who says people at NWestern are more “academically-minded”? Huh? have you seen the admit stats of those who matriculate to Vandy? not true. My son was involved in many academic pursuits and discussion groups which I won’t name since he was not STEM. Most of his STEM and engineering friends hit the books hard and were pretty good at study skills from day one. Follow your mental and emotional well-being and health. Your pathway is a long one and full of rigor regardless of your undergrad school.
Stop alluding to admit stats…they say nothing about the academic or institutional culture of schools this selective (at some point differences are a function of what the admissions committees select for. You can’t convince me that because Vanderbilt’s scores are higher than Stanford, Duke, and Penn that the students are a) better or b) more intellectual/nerdy…if anything Stanford is still a major nerd school. MIT is also much more academic and nerdy and has equivalent stats to Vanderbilt. WUSTL is also known to be that way as well. More schools with lower stats are known to have a much more academic feel/orientation.) and are often deceptive when trying to correlate it. Academic in this context does not only = tests well and wants high grades, works hard. Exactly at what selective school is this not the case? I think the OP is pointing out that generally NU is more nerdy (not in an offensive way- but the fact that it is viewed offensively is probably why no one uses it in this context anymore) or that students come there for particular academic interests that are known to be strong. Like NU is known to be a serious “chem school”. Anyway, if it was just admit stats, you would not constantly hear Duke students and faculty (for decades even when they were far above some current peers) entertain the idea that too many students are not as intellectually engaged (several articles comparing it to peer schools) as they should be for a variety of reasons. “Academic” in these terms comes from some combo of the social and intellectual feel and I’m sure is not meant to describe how intense students are about doing well. The idea is that students on their own campus and others can “feel” a difference. For example, places like GT,ND, and Vanderbilt are known to have a somewhat similar feel. They have academically serious students with more diverse social lives perhaps less likely to be intertwined with academics as much as others. Nothing wrong with it (prospective students obviously like it), but it is different from many other elite privates.
Aside from general nerdiness, note that distributions of majors can tell you a lot about how academically uptight a campus is. Like many peer schools have far more pre-healths (and even things such as natural sciences majors) than Vanderbilt (perhaps to their detriments) and the pursuit of business majors and business oriented careers is often higher, especially if you look at super elites. It seems as if the big 3 pre-professional trend is much bigger at other schools (and often students choose majors typically associated with those paths). Alongside this, many of these such schools also are among top producers of those who pursue PhD’s. It isn’t a surprise that schools with significantly large amounts in either one of these categories and certainly those falling into both will feel more “academic”…doesn’t matter if the SAT average is a 1350 or 1500. The interests of students are different across schools due to traditional strengths of the school, their current direction, whatever. To suggest that stats will trump this as the cause of differences in prevailing attitudes and “feel” at already highly selective colleges…I don’t think is right. Similar stats do not mean similar institutional cultures and student attitudes. Chicago’s students were “nerds” far before they switched to their new admissions scheme, featuring a super low admissions rate, and a near 1500/1600 SAT average (in fact, some worry that the less self-selected pool of applicants and admits threatens that old culture). And I don’t see Vandy’s balance disappearing as a result of its new admissions stats.
I think telling any poster to “Stop” alluding to admit stats is out of line. I was merely protest characterizing NWestern as more “nerdy” than Vandy. College stereotypes are often stale and in transition as the college admit process has flattened.
Northwestern was, in my personal observation, elegant and sophisticated when I used to fly up there to stay for a few days with a student. Admitted students felt a sense of what was then regional pride when admitted to NWestern, which is today is more decidedly national as is Vandy. Vanderbilt is -I think --the second biggest employer in Tennessee. This is quite different than Northwestern’s centrality to Chicago’s viability but it is likely essential to Evanston’s economy.
As stated, I went to high school in Illinois and was on campus several times. I found the Midwest to have its charms. And I absolutely do observe a big and not subtle shift in the Vanderbilt undergraduate college culture overall, even since my Duke son was admitted in 05. As one poster who had a son at Vandy four years recently (whose many friends I also follow post-grad), had a husband at Vandy for grad school, went out with many Vandy students socially myself when I was young and spent years in their libraries and working within blocks of Vanderbilt, I have one point of view. Which I will express. The OP has two good choices. Either will provide a great foundation. Vandy is every bit as academically intensive as Northwestern, but there is an ease about the location and the size of Nashville and gorgeous weather. Although Evanston is actually a toney suburb of one of the world’s great cities, Chicago looms large.
As a parent, I suggest to the OP that he or she focus on emotional fit and gut feelings on making this decision. The work will be challenging. Grades matter but so does your growth as a human being from ages 18-22. College is about more than academics, and you need to feel reasonably happy in your sense of place to do the work.
I think the previous discussion deviated a little bit from the initial topic and got a little bit emotional, but such debate is ok. Now back to the topic at hand. Vandy or Northwestern. Faline2, I like that you pointed out that Vandy does have the “academic” students; it makes me feel more comfortable. I also visited Vandy recently, and while I wasn’t as impressed with the school and campus overall as I was with Northwestern, the medical related parts of the school blew me away. It seems as if most of the engineering including MechE and EE have a lot of research going on in biotech. They are opening a brand new engineering building in the fall that will be home to an abundance of biotech research. In terms of what I want to do, BME and premed, I don’t really such much of a difference between Vanderbilt and Northwestern. In the last year however, Vandy’s med school accept rate was 68% compared to the roughly 75% rate at NU. NU doesn’t release stats on BME accept rate but vandy does. This past year, the BME to medschool accept rate was around 60% and the previous year it was 89%. These numbers tend to fluctuate a lot. In terms of all other areas of study, which I doubt I will switch to, Northwestern gets the clear edge I feel, so maybe going there gives me security in the form of academic flexibility. On the other hand, I’d feel much more comfortable going to Vandy because of the weather, the atmosphere, and the better food. Grade wise, I’m trying to get a better sense of how I’ll do at both places. One person I talked to at NU told me not to expect anything above a 3.6 doing BME premed, while people I talked to at Vandy say I can attain a 3.8-4.0 doing BME premed if I put in the work. Obviously, these aren’t the most accurate sources, but they are statements to consider. With the more comforting environment, the rising BME program due to newer facilities, and the seemingly slightly more generous grading, it seems that Vandy is the better fit for me. Some of these facts though, I would need to check up on. Is Vandy BME premed is actually more doable? Is Northwestern really as high stress of a pressure cooker as people make it out to be compared to Vandy? How much does the prestige difference (if there is any at all) matter in the real world? Are people at Northwestern actually superior academically? These are questions that I may or may not ever get answers to.