Vanderbilt vs. Duke vs. Penn

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
1

<p>Hello, I have been accepted into these three schools (as well as Georgetown, Cornell and Michigan but I am not strongly considering any of them) and am having a very difficult time choosing. I recently visited Vanderbilt for the fist time and absolutely LOVED it -- I know that if I went there, I would have a fantastic time. Everything about it, from the weather, to the campus, to the girls, to Nashville, is perfect. But honestly, I just don't know if I can turn down the prestige of Penn or Duke simply because of seemingly less important factors such as those. I have this feeling that later in life I may regret choosing Vanderbilt, when it comes to employment/grad school/other opportunities. Am I wrong? Is there anybody on here who would like to convince me that I should in fact choose Vandy?</p>

<p>BTW, financially, they will all be about the same (we got essentially no aid).</p>

2

<p>I’d go to Duke or Penn. If you decide to go to Vanderbilt, it’s certainly a well-regarded school, though.</p>

3

<p>OK I’ll give it a shot. First all 3 can get you wherever you want to go. There are only 15 universities ranked in the top 20 USNWR and top 50 AWR and all three are in this elite group. No one from any grad school or job will look down on a degree from these world class universities.<br>
What do students say about these schools? The Princeton Review looks at surveys from current students.
Happiest students: VU ranked # 8, UPENN not ranked, Duke not ranked
Quality of Life score VU 98, UPENN 92, Duke 73 (one of the lowest of any top university)
Academic ranking VU 92, UPENN 92, Duke 90
Interesting professors score VU 92 UPENN 79 DUKE 77
Professors accessible score VU 88, UPENN83, DUKE 74
Best run university VU # 18, UPENN not ranked, DUKE not ranked</p>

<p>Average SAT/ACT scores: VU>UPENN=DUKE
Merit aid: VU>DUKE>UPENN
Town gown relationship VU>UPENN>DUKE
City: Nashville>>>Phili>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Durham
Happy students make good students so go where you will be happy
You don’t have to tell people “no not Penn State I go to UPENN”
Half the country will not celebrate when your basketball team is defeated
And yes you will see more pretty girls in one weekend at Vandy than you will in 4 years at UPENN or DUKE</p>

4

<p>It’s undergrad. All three will provide essentially the same academic level learning. If you want the name you can go UPENN or Duke, but Vanderbilt isn’t far behind and still gaining prestige FAST. Your love for the school environment can determine your academic performance, just keep that in mind as well.</p>

5

<p>I think there is no doubt that Vanderbilt offers the highest quality of life, and also no doubt that Duke and UPenn have better job prospects on average. </p>

<p>I would caution you on making a decision based on job placement. Ultimately, job placement is a lot about who you were able to network with, and not just a function of where you went to school. There are of course Vandy students who end up with better jobs than Duke or UPenn students. Your undergraduate degree is really only going to matter for your very first job anyway. It’s the next four years of your life you should be focusing on–a time when you are going to be making friends and memories that will last long after you’ve quit Job #1. You may go to UPenn and end up in a job you could have just have easily gotten through Vandy-- then what will you be regretting?</p>

6

<p>duke and vandy grads parent here–bud123 is right on, plus he really made me laugh out loud re half the country
celebrating when your basketball team loses. I will hold off and not agree with the remark about the lack of pretty girls however in comparison out of the sisterhood with the gals at all 3 fabulous universities. </p>

7

<p>First, congratulations on all three acceptances. Very, very impressive. </p>

<p>A few things to consider:</p>

<p>Prestige does still lean towards Duke and Penn, but this is changing very quickly. Most people with an opinion on the subject consider either Vandy or USC to be the most rapidly improving school in the country. Each incoming class at Vanderbilt over the last four or five years has been more qualified than the one before it. I’m a current junior at Vandy, and would say that there is definitely a perceivable difference in the overall caliber of students in just my year and those of the current graduating senior class. However, even this senior class is far more qualified than those of recent years. It’s safe to say that the level of achievement in Vanderbilt’s student body has only recently caught up with that of the student bodies at either Duke or Penn. Hence, comparing a student’s job opportunities out of Vandy with what they’d get out of Duke or Penn wasn’t really fair until very recently, as better opportunities out of Duke or Penn would have largely owed to the students at Duke/Penn just being more qualified. </p>

<p>I think the only area where Duke and Penn have traditionally had an edge is in placement into jobs in investment banking and management consulting, as recruiters in both industries have, in the past, focused their efforts exclusively upon the ivies, Duke, and Stanford. Again, I speak from firsthand experience, and can tell you that this is changing rapidly. Vandy’s placement into MBB (McKinsey, Bain, and BCG – the top three management consulting firms) now vs. what it was even two years ago is a night-and-day comparison (eight current seniors entering Bain alone this year vs. maybe five, in total, entering any one of the three a few years ago). Placement into bulge bracket investment banks has improved even more dramatically. In the current senior class, there are at least two headed to each of the bulge brackets besides UBS. This is the fourth year in a row for which Vandy has been a core school (top three in # of recruits) at Bank of America Merrill Lynch, and it is guaranteed to repeat as a core school next year because BAML just extended 11 summer analyst offers to members of the junior class (might be a record. Summer analyst class size is below 100, so over 10% could be from Vandy). All of that said, I might add that Penn would still give you an edge (and a significant one) if you have been accepted to Wharton. The only school in the country that could rival Wharton for placement into “business” jobs is Harvard, and Wharton’s network is still better than Harvard’s because there aren’t as many Harvard graduates targeting these jobs. Conversely, if you’re at Penn but not in Wharton, your opportunities may actually be worse than advertised, as many employers exclusively target Wharton students when they recruit. I realize that this whole paragraph has focused exclusively on investment banking and management consulting – which probably mean very little to you, still being in high school – but your opportunities for everything else will unquestionably be very similar at any of the three schools. Networking is where Duke/Penn have the edge, but this edge is far smaller and far less important for jobs in other industries. </p>

<p>Grad school placement should not at all factor into this decision, as it will be similar coming from any of the three. You wouldn’t enter business school until several years after you finish your undergraduate career, and at that point your work experience, GMAT, and GPA would be far more important than where you did your undergrad. Law school acceptance is exclusively predicated on your LSAT and your GPA. Medical school acceptance is similar to law school acceptance in that test scores (MCAT) and GPA are huge components, but your research experience is also weighted heavily; fortunately, all three have enormous medical centers and plenty of labs, and make research experience easy to obtain. Placement into Masters/PhD programs in any subject comes down to your GPA, GRE, and research/thesis/recommendations from professors, which shouldn’t necessarily differ coming from any of the three. </p>

<p>You really cannot go wrong here. All three schools will leave every door open to you in the future. Also, kudos to you for thinking about this maturely; you’ll be successful wherever you end up. Best of luck in making your decision, and congrats again on the acceptances!</p>

8

<p>I can contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion on investment banking but wanted to point out that Bill Bain is a graduate of … Vanderbilt University :-)</p>

9

<p>What major is the OP interested in ? If pre-med etc isn’t Vandy grade deflation a concern as compared to grade inflation at Duke ( I don’t know about inflation/deflation but just parroting what i have read on CC)</p>

10

<p>LHSCary - I’m not completely sure whether your comment is supposed to add to or detract from mine. </p>

<p>You are correct that Bill Bain is a Vanderbilt alumnus. However, I don’t think that that’s why Vandy’s placement into Bain is as good as it is. He graduated back in 1959, yet Vandy’s only recently become one of Bain’s targets. </p>

11

<p>My comment was flippant–I too doubt Bill Bain has any influence on Vanderbilt being a recruiting target for Bain. I guess I was trying to show that people who are highly successful in business (and also education, medicine, law, politics etc.) have graduated from Vanderbilt over the years; VU doesn’t currently have the national reputation of Duke or Penn but it is a very fine school that prepares its students well for med school, law school or business school or for the workforce. The original poster can’t go wrong with any of the choices but shouldn’t base a decision solely on prestige; comfort/happiness while in school are more likely to lead to better grades and thus a better chance of getting into grad school. Best of luck with your ultimate decision!</p>

12

<p>If you’d asked me this 2 years ago when I was applying, I would’ve picked Duke or UPenn, no questions asked. That decision would’ve been based nearly 100% on college rankings and rumors. That being said, there is no question Duke and UPenn have more diverse programs in A&S, a greater international reputation, ethnic diversity, and more intellectual/nerd culture on campus. Penn also has Wharton, which is infinitely better and more well-connected than the HOD/Managerial Sciences minors at Vanderbilt.</p>

<p>THAT BEING SAID: I’ll cut the obligatory comments about great academics, beautiful campus, location, etc. </p>

<p>Here’s why I would pick Vandy. </p>

<p>The College Experience- SEC Football. Tailgates. Parties every night, starting on Tuesdays. The most attractive people you have ever seen in your life (this is not a lie or an exaggeration). </p>

<p>Every friend I have who has visited has commented on how well put-together and social the campus is. Vanderbilt will turn a homebody into the life of a party, and force you to learn socializing and networking skills that will take you farther in your career than any class/mock interview ever can. Ultimately, it teaches you to be confident and this is a skill that is far more important for your social life and professional life than you’d think. Personal growth happens outside the classroom. There are so many student organizations and student communities for you to take part of. </p>

<p>In the end, when you’re crusty and old, you want to look back on college and remember all the cool things you did and all the cool people you meet. Not all the lonely, anxious Friday nights spent in the library on facebook, messaging people about what they thought the curve on the last calculus exam would be. </p>

<p>You might’ve made your decision already, but I’m posting this because it’s something that I wish I’d have read years ago, when I was making my decision. This is all coming from an Asian, pre-med student who was 100% prejudiced against the South and dreaded going to Vandy senior year. </p>

<p>One final comment: I will also add that the culture on campus is VERY rapidly changing and disappearing, as the college attracts more grade-focused students uninterested in greek life. Our acceptance rate is plummeting, and the academic quality of each incoming class is more terrifying elite than the next, at a rate that far exceeds any other college in the US (except USC maybe). I predict in these 10 years will be the last that a student gets to enjoy the party culture on campus before it disappears. It’s just impossible to maintain that kind of dichotomy. So come before it’s gone ;)</p>

13

<p>I wouldn’t say the culture is very rapidly changing and disappearing. The face of Greek life may slowly be changing as Vandy gets stricter on their behavior, but I don’t think we’re ever going to see Vandy lose its highly social campus. The Commons and lack of off-campus housing really encourage an active social scene.</p>

14

<p>I am no believer in rankings, but I do agree that they are meaningful indicators. From the food to the girls, you will find that Vanderbilt is ranked very high in almost all rankings, especially those which use the newest data and methods rather than the reputation of your parents’ generation. Here are two of the recent and very revealing rankings. Are you ambitious and driven, or are you going to settle with the crumbling old reputation?</p>

<p>The Top 10 Schools For the Most Ambitious Students</p>

<h1>1 Amherst</h1>

<h1>2 Bucknell</h1>

<h1>3 Cornell</h1>

<h1>4 Davidson</h1>

<h1>5 Georgetown</h1>

<h1>6 UPenn</h1>

<h1>7 Princeton</h1>

<h1>8 Rice</h1>

<h1>9 Vanderbilt</h1>

<h1>10 Wake Forest</h1>

<p>“Finding a school that will arm you with skills outside the realm of textbooks is rare, and VU does just that.”
<a href=“The Top 10 Schools For Ambitious Students | HuffPost College”>The Top 10 Schools For Ambitious Students | HuffPost College;

<p>The 10 Universities (in the US and UK) With The Most Driven Students </p>

<h1>1 UCLA</h1>

<h1>2 Vanderbilt</h1>

<h1>3 London School of Economics</h1>

<h1>4 University College, London</h1>

<h1>5 Stanford</h1>

<h1>6 Johns Hopkins</h1>

<h1>7 Cambridge</h1>

<h1>8 Northwestern</h1>

<h1>9 MIT</h1>

<h1>10 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign</h1>

<p>ViewsOnYou, the London based startup sets up profiles for people to help match them with companies and employers that may be a good personality fit. A person on ViewsOnYou is matched with companies using three components — energy (how you work), interpersonal (how you interact), and intelligence (how you think). 23 different metrics — including “drive” — factor into the three categories and are determined for each person from a combination of self-assessment and peer reviews.
<a href=“10 Universities With the Most Driven Students”>10 Universities With the Most Driven Students;

15

<p>I find it insulting that people on this board frequently rank schools based on girls (for example, the preceding post says “From the food to the girls…”) Don’t put girls in the same category as food, campus infrastructure, the existence of Greek Life, a strong sports program, academic programs and so on. They are PEOPLE, not things. The more Vanderbilt hopefuls post about and rank the “girl” factor, the less of a reason it is to go there. What girl wants to be constantly judged on her looks for four years? </p>

16

<p>pilgrim6, I think the girls comment is meant to be a snide remark about how boys sometimes decide on a college. I agree that it can become annoying rather than funny. But to be fair, I’ve heard high school girls frequently discuss the “boys” factor when ranking their college preferences. I tend to take this sort of discussion lightly, but I’m old and jaded.</p>

<p>FWIW, I thought my son would care about this factor, but he didn’t. He did however care about the social life (“culture”), and is greatly enjoying VU, and all his new friends (of either gender). And to echo something said above, he’s extremely driven. He talks about the “work hard, play hard” motto that seems to pervade, and likes that a lot.</p>

17

<p>javalava, very fair points, and I would agree that the social scene at Vanderbilt is really, really unique among top schools. You will not find a social scene nearly as vibrant and thriving until you drop down to USC on the USNews rankings. </p>

<p>Regarding your point about Penn and Duke still holding an edge in terms of “more diverse programs in A&S, a greater international reputation, ethnic diversity, and more intellectual/nerd culture on campus”, I would say that I agree to some extent, but that the schools’ differences in these regards, at least between Vanderbilt and Duke, are marginal at best. I’ll address each separately:
1) Concerning the diversity of programs in A&S, I actually don’t know that I agree with your point. Are there certain majors that Penn and Duke sponsor that Vandy does not? Vandy also allows the option of creating one’s own concentration, and is similar to Penn in the latter’s “One University” policy, which allows undergrads to take classes in any of its schools. I can’t think of one thing one would want to study that is offered in A&S at Duke or Penn – or at any comparable institution’s undergraduate curriculum, for that matter – that is not also available at Vanderbilt.
2) Where greater international reputation is concerned, I agree. However, the difference between Duke and Vandy in this regard is especially negligible. People overseas know that the ivy league, Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, and Caltech are excellent universities. Duke may be well-known because of its basketball, but it’s still far from achieving its due recognition, and is much less acclaimed internationally than, say, Cornell – which it is certainly at least the equal of. Penn beats both by a wide margin in this regard, so if this is important, then neither Vandy nor Duke would be good choices when Penn is also an option.
3) Regarding ethnic diversity and a more intellectual/nerdy culture on campus – yes, this is where I agree with you most (as in, I think these are the most likely areas where any meaningful difference may exist). However, I again have some reserves about claiming that Duke excels in either of these areas; I am sure that it tops Vandy, but I don’t know whether it does so by any significant margin. Furthermore, the OP and any others in similar situations should evaluate the importance of ethnic diversity and intellectualism to them on a personal level. To some, neither is at all important. To others, one or both are extremely important. Both are more about personal preference than anything else. Many students actually find themselves wishing for less intellectualism. One can simply be exposed to enough intellectual thought within classes that the idea of discussing “the history of modern political thought” or something similarly esoteric over lunch, at the gym, and at night with one’s roommate while falling asleep is exhausting. It is also conceivable that, for reasons other than bigotry, one might prefer a lower level of ethnic diversity (this is not my preference, however, and I believe that ethnic diversity is a key area where Vandy needs to catch up). A university like Harvard, which is probably the gold standard in student body ethnic diversity, is far ahead of the rest of the world in terms of diversity. The diversity a Harvard graduate experiences in nearly any setting will never compare to what they experienced while in college. There are undoubtedly consequences to this, but because I actually believe ethnic diversity is highly important, and because I do not want to start an argument on the topic, I will not detail them.
I will, however, state that, if Penn and Duke are seen as offering tremendous advantages because of higher ethnic diversity and/or intellectualism, that these same benefits can be had quite easily at Vandy, too. Yes, African Americans may comprise 2% less of the student body at Vanderbilt than they do at Duke (I’m pulling this number out of my ***, but it illustrates a point). It would still be preposterous to think that this impedes one in making friends with African Americans, or in attaining a new perspective through engaging in debates or discussions with African Americans. Intellectualism/nerdiness is not at all hard to find at Vanderbilt. You simply cannot enroll a class of 1600 with an average SAT score of 2250 (or whatever it is) and expect it to not be tremendously nerdy. I do not consider myself a particularly intellectual person, but I have gone deaf in the ears in my nearly three years here from long discussions with friends, hallmates, and professors about random dilemmas concerning ethics, morals, politics, philosophy, science…you name it. Most students here are very intellectual, and if they were significantly more so, I assure you that I would not at all be having a well-rounded college experience.</p>

<p>Essentially, I think that your point about international reputations may be worth a further look, but I don’t think that a college decision should hinge on either of the other two. In fact, I think international reputation may also be a bit far removed from the realm of important factors here, since even a degree from Penn will not, on its own, open many doors abroad, and since even attempting to market a degree abroad is still something that a very small number of US graduates do. Additionally, top liberal arts colleges like Williams and Amherst have essentially zero recognition abroad, but many still choose them over Penn, Duke, and Vanderbilt each year. </p>

18

<p>Where these schools really may hold a meaningful edge over Vanderbilt is with respect to their reputations within the US. All three universities are remarkably similar at a high level; they are all mid-sized research universities, with similar incoming undergraduate class profiles. </p>

<p>Penn and Duke have better reputations than Vanderbilt for two reasons:</p>

<p>The first is that Vanderbilt has only recently become a peer of Penn and Duke. While graduating classes from all three are likely at very similar levels of accomplishment now, this was definitely not the case 20 years ago. As a result, Penn and Duke have longer track records of distinguished alumni, which is why Penn and Duke students have an edge in alumni networking. However, this is an edge that should become less and less important as Vanderbilt continues to produce graduating classes of its current caliber. Furthermore, because recent alumni are usually the most helpful when networking, this edge should erode rapidly, as Vandy’s recent and soon-to-be graduating classes are by far its most accomplished. </p>

<p>Second, while all three are research universities, Vanderbilt likely has a stronger undergraduate focus than either Duke or Penn. As proof of this, consider that Vanderbilt provides tenure to Professors based primarily upon undergraduate teaching ability. I know of no other tier-1 research university that can also make this claim. This necessarily compromises a research focus, and as research is what brings in fame and prestige, certainly may also compromise recognition, especially vis-à-vis schools like Penn and Duke. However, as an incoming undergraduate, it might pay to ask oneself whether it is more important that one’s Professors be renowned for research, or be renowned for teaching. Yes, having classes taught by a famous Professor is a perk, but I assure you that anyone with a PhD in a subject knows more than enough to teach an undergraduate class in the same subject. What matters far more in a Professor than fame for an undergraduate’s learning are qualities like charisma and a genuine interest in instructing students. I’ve taken two math courses at Vanderbilt taught by a brilliant, renowned European mathematician, but he was hard to understand and I regret having taken both. A lack of research (side note: Vanderbilt does not have a lack of research. Vanderbilt is a top research university in terms of both funding and output; I only mean to suggest that it focuses slightly more on undergraduates and slightly less on research than its peers) is also the primary reason why excellent schools like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc. – which offer what many consider the premier undergraduate learning experience, at least in the US – suffer in renown relative to their research university peers. Superb undergraduate education, however, is also why these top liberal arts colleges are celebrated, despite a lack of “accomplished” faculty. </p>

<p>To summarize everything, I do believe that Penn and Duke will give you an edge. This edge, however, will stem from superior alumni networking opportunities, which will become better and better for Vanderbilt students over just the next few years. Furthermore, this edge is nothing that cannot be overcome by simply being marginally more proactive, and Vanderbilt’s opportunities are excellent enough as is that this extra effort may still not be needed. The point at which Vanderbilt’s name will catch up to either Penn’s or Duke’s is years into the future, but many top liberal arts colleges suffer from far less name recognition, so clearly this is something that many are able to overlook when settling upon a school. Furthermore, the social scene at Vanderbilt is unique among top schools, and the undergraduate experience in general is something the school is very committed to. </p>

<p>There is absolutely reason to pick Vanderbilt over either Penn or Duke. However, all three are excellent choices. </p>

19

<p>Also, decisions like this happen all the time. Consider this article:</p>

<p><a href=“Inside Vandy: Vanderbilt University's student news source”>Inside Vandy: Vanderbilt University's student news source;

<p>which states:</p>

<p>“Additionally, Vanderbilt’s overlap in terms of admissions with competitor schools has intensified in recent years. Duke University is still the No. 1 school Vanderbilt competes with to attract freshmen, but Yale has risen from being the No. 21 competitor to the No. 2 competitor, meaning admitted freshmen must increasingly choose between Yale and Vanderbilt. Harvard has risen from No. 10 to No. 3 in terms of overlap.”</p>

<p>This was for the Class of 2017, who are currently rising sophomores. Vanderbilt’s yield rate (% of admitted students who end up enrolling) was 40.7% for the Class of 2017, which is fairly common for schools in this range (Duke, Penn, Northwestern, Brown, etc). Hence, nearly 41% of all students admitted to Vanderbilt end up enrolling. </p>

<p>Consider that, because they are very similar schools, Duke and Vanderbilt must share an enormous number of cross-admits. In fact, Duke, Vanderbilt, the ivies, and all other top schools share an enormous number of cross admits with one another. If Vanderbilt lost nearly every battle to just its top three competitors in cross-admits – Duke, Yale, and Harvard – it would likely have to be winning an unusually large majority from schools like Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, and Northwestern in order to maintain a 41% yield rate. What’s more likely is that Vanderbilt is winning a fair share of the admit battles with each of these schools. </p>

<p>Last year, VUceptors (upperclassmen who serve as mentors to groups of freshmen throughout their first semester at Vandy) were given information packets with data on cross-admit statistics, which corroborated some of the above. Vandy’s split with schools like Brown and Duke was extremely close – something between 40/60 and 45/55. It won heavily against Rice and Emory, and lost much more frequently against schools at the very top, like Harvard and Yale. I realize that this information is not made publicly available, so it has to be taken at less than face value. However, the article above should show that Vanderbilt is quite frequently chosen over schools that currently enjoy greater recognition. </p>

20

<p>If you want to be really particular, it’s more like Wharton >>>> Duke > Penn >= Vanderbilt. </p>

<p>I just went through the summer analyst recruiting process for investment banking, and am familiar with the undergraduate school representation for incoming analyst and summer analyst classes at most large banks. In general, Wharton probably has 10-15 kids heading to each BB. Duke has 3-4, and Vanderbilt has 2-3 (although it has very lopsided success at BAML, in particular). </p>

<p>A school’s past banking alumni will tell you very little about its current recruiting. There’s correlation there for sure, in that schools like Harvard and Wharton who have tons of alumni in banking still have great recruiting to this day, but that’s not at all a reliable criterion. </p>