<p>Update: I visited Penn last week, and for various reasons have decided it would not really be a great fit for me.
It’s now between Duke and Vandy, and I am still having a really tough time deciding. In terms of what I am interested in studying, I will likely major in International Relations or Political Science, with possibly a minor in Economics. I also have a strong interest in languages (French and Spanish mainly). I know various posters mentioned differences in international recognition; this may be relevant to me, as I would definitely be interested in living/working abroad in the future if possible (ideally in Europe). I don’t know if these details would help at all in providing me with advice, but I thought I’d share them in case they do.</p>
<p>Choosing between Duke and Vandy should be a very tough call. Our Duke son just came home from his five year reunion and talked to me about how much he is still thrilled with Duke and how much it changed his life, how great his classmates are, how wonderful his academics were. Our Vandy son would not have enjoyed it there as much…as it was important to him to explore Nashville and all the area on foot around the Vandy campus which is decidedly more fun town/gown than Duke. I think you have to look at the intangible fit factors for yourself. Also you should be doing some critical thinking on the academic pathway you are most interested in if you are one of the few people who won’t change his or her mind in a year. For instance, if you are interested in French or Spanish…look more deeply in the department for their immersion offerings which I am sure are many! There is a diff between a shared academic venture abroad with other universities and a program that is specific to an institution. ie our Vandy son went to Copenhagen and lived with three other men from different colleges doing different things, our Duke son opted for a program in Berlin that was taught only to Duke/Davidson students…and it was much more personal and also more satisfying. Vandy has its own signature programs abroad, as well as shared programs. Take a look at Vandy’s program in France and in Spanish speaking cities…you may turn up some fabulous information as a semester abroad is not to be missed no matter where you end up. Vandy has its own program in Washington DC which is really well-run that Vandy son did once. The Gates Foundation at Duke funds tons of vetted out proposals by Duke students that are service related foreign programs. The school of public policy at Duke is pretty sophisticated and there is someone from the state department on campus. </p>
<p>Economics is very rigorous at both schools. Duke has a lot of Econ majors (Duke son was in Econ)…it is one of the lead majors on campus and it is a tough pathway. </p>
<p>The details you share in your last post don’t really tell us anything to recommend one school strongly over the other. The social atmospheres of the two universities vary somewhat. Vandy wins hands down in town/gown synergy and location. In my opinion, the student bodies are equally talented and both campuses are simply wonderful with Vandy perhaps winning in terms of residential housing and their two years of residential colleges. Duke has an illustrious history in sports that binds the students together. </p>
<p>Academically, you can make either college sing. I would watch youtube videos re Sanford School of Public Policy at Duke…they have a lot of in house lectures from significant people and they do put each of their majors into internships. One of Vandy son’s majors was poli sci with an emphasis on international relations. I think he would comment that many of his classes were small and had discussion options and only a couple were large survey classes. He also spent two summers in Washington DC with the support of his Vandy profs. </p>
<p>good luck with your terrible probelm…:). You should be choosing on your instincts now re your emotional health and on curriculum. </p>
<p>International Rankings</p>
<p>TIMES WORLD RANKING 2014
<a href=“World University Rankings 2013-14 | Times Higher Education (THE)”>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking</a>
Penn: #16
Duke: #17
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Vanderbilt: #88</p>
<p>GLOBAL EMPLOYABILITY RANKING 2013
<a href=“Global Employability University Ranking 2013 | Times Higher Education (THE)”>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/global-employability-university-ranking-2013/2008497.article</a>
Duke: #31
Penn: #62
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Vanderbilt>#100</p>
<p>QS WORLD RANKING 2014
<a href=“QS World University Rankings 2014: Top Global Universities | Top Universities”>QS World University Rankings 2014: Top Global Universities | Top Universities;
Penn: #13
Duke: #23
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Vanderbilt: #181</p>
<p>Don’t let these Vandy alums fool you into believing that the school is now on par with Penn and Duke internationally. These most recent world rankings demonstrate that Duke and Penn are in a completely different league reputation-wise internationally.</p>
<p>I would choose Duke because it will give you the best combination of Penn’s academic reputation/prestige and Vanderbilt’s social life/undergraduate focus.</p>
<p>I just don’t understand why anyone would pick Vandy over Duke.</p>
<p>@ennisthemenace “I just don’t understand why anyone would pick Vandy over Duke”</p>
<p>Perhaps because there is more to a school than rankings? Perhaps an incoming student doesn’t want to deal with Durham, wants a fun and interesting college town, wants a competitive football program, wants better weather, a not-hated basketball team, wants a better social life, wants to avoid the Group of 88, etc etc etc. </p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is doubting Duke and Penn are more well regarded both nationally and internationally. There is also no doubt that Vanderbilt is on an extreme upswing and its rankings, nationally and internationally, have not yet caught up with the quality of the student body, which is as good or better than that of Penn and Duke (judging by test scores).</p>
<p>@njlokk, You did the right thing in going and visiting the campuses. Really it is going to come down to where you feel is a great fit. My only regret is that you didn’t go to Vandy over its Rites of Spring Weekend, which is consistently ranked as one of the best College Music Festivals. (If you had I am sure you would have chose Vandy). I was like you and my decision came down to Vandy and Duke, and I chose Vandy. I have never regretted it. There are a lot of Duke grads that I know that seem incredulous that I would choose Vandy over Duke, and that <em>gasp</em> I would enjoy myself and become successful. Malcolm Gladwell wrote in his book David and Goliath, and he broke down how college rankings were not a great indicator of future success, and how actually going to an elite college might hinder your dreams because it makes you a small fish in a big pond. The same qualities of work ethic and determination that got you into Vandy and Duke are going to get you a good job regardless of if you studied in Nashville or Durham. I graduated from Vandy, went to Johns Hopkins for my Masters and now work full time with a couple Duke grads. Surprise, we got the same job. We also work with people that went to directional state schools. It comes down to where you feel comfortable because where you are comfortable is where you will do your best. To me, I enjoyed Nashville much more than I enjoyed Durham. I felt like both schools offered me pretty much the exact same experiences, except Vandy offered me more with the city of Nashville. </p>
<p>You mentioned that you are interested in Spanish, and I know I just knocked rankings, but Vandy is consistently ranked #1 for its Spanish program (or at least it was when I went there). </p>
<p>Getting a job internationally does not come down to where you went to school, it comes down to who you know, and if you network really well. I am sure Vandy and Duke both have alumni overseas that can put you in touch with others.</p>
<p>I think it is kinda foolish to judge people on where they chose to go to school because I never know their situation, but just to throw some shade at @ennisthemenace I can never understand why people chose Duke over Vandy. And neither can the research triangle business journal, who said Vandy is the more selective than Duke in the South <a href=“http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2011/12/13/duke-is-the-souths-second-most.html”>http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2011/12/13/duke-is-the-souths-second-most.html</a> (see I can post rankings too that say what I want).</p>
<p>ennisthemenace…LOL!!! “International Rankings” are the last (first?) refuge of the insecure! You can find many large state school factories listed way above places like Brown, Dartmouth, Williams etc on such lists!!! They are absolute drivel and irrelevant to the undergraduate experience. Vanderbilt now out scores both Penn and Duke in the caliber of entering student test performance. The student pool is identical in talent, faculty are excellent at all of them. Vanderbilt offers a much more fun and lively undergrad experience to boot! I’d say there is plenty of reason to pick it above Duke, Penn etc. Of course, the reverse is also equally true. But those who are transfixed by “lists” and so called “prestige” (which is rapidly getting equal) should by all means trudge on to whatever school gratifies their hankering for such a label.</p>
<p>supernova…OK, look at facts and be prepared to be “very, very, very surprised”. I doubt your degree of surprise is relevant to anything being discussed here,</p>
<p>Funny how no one yet has remarked on the dorm situtation at Vandy. The Freshmen live in very cramped quarters where they literally put on each other’s underwear. It is awful. </p>
<p>Further, as exemplified by the fact that some people here crow about Vanderbilt’s presence in the SEC, Vanderbilt is still a heavily SOUTHERN school. If you like that vibe, then fine. Also, it is so off the world radar that Vanderbilt actually has to recruit . . . ASIANS! Who has ever heard of Asians being recruited anywhere?! College applications and colleges in general are geysered with Asians, but not at Vandy. Indeed, it probably the one major school where Asians are actively recruited and where their scores and attributes actually don’t disadvantage them. Any school that actually has to recruit Asians to go there (mein Got!) and touts its membership in a conference with Florida, Tennessee and Alabama (academic powerhouses, all . . .) is not yet ready for prime time. That’s Vanderbilt. Sorry, it had to be said.</p>
<p>makennacomp…dude, I got an MD at Duke, so I know Duke. Nice campus…disgusting dorms and rooming situation, not even air conditioned in many cases. The fact that you are indicting Freshman dorms on the Commons at VU renders your other opinions utterly worthless, and lays bare your agenda! You seem to have a spectacularly myopic and addled view of VU, not the least bit burdened by facts. Probably says more about your mind set than it does about VU. Have you been to VU recently…" heavily southern"??? No more so now than is Duke! Get real.</p>
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<p>Ok, I’l bite Oliver, what are the FACTS? You provide none. </p>
<p>Here are my facts: every Asian in my high school was admitted to Vandy, denied by Duke and Penn (Asians apply to every Ivy, don’t you know . . .), and accepted to State U. That’s a LOT of facts I’m dealing with.</p>
<p>Ennis, your last sentence is why Duke can be so polarizing . There are many reasons for students to select Vany, or Duke, or Penn, or an LAC, or a state flagship… and the global employability ranking ain’t one of them. For the most part Vandy and Duke are 1 percenters in any category one would look at and you are splitting hairs trying to argue between school ranked in the same percentile. The areas where there is a large difference are:
- Nashville vs Durham…where do you want to live the next 4 years?
- Quality of life…Vandy students rank their QOL among the best in the nation, Duke students rank their QOL among the lowest of the top 20 U’s.
- Diversity…Duke is more of a global university and it’s student body mirrors the population of the world. Vandy is more committed to domestic students and it’s population mirrors that of the USA. (neither is better, just different)</p>
<p>maken, I think you may be about 10 years behind the times. It’s 2014. Go look up the freshman commons at Vandy and the geographic population of it’s students. When you catch up to 2014 please feel free to post an updated note. It’s nice for Asian students to know at least one top university will treat them fairly in the application process and Vandy is well represented with Asians students (5% of USA and 9% at Vandy). 15 years ago Duke was the top dog in the Southeast. Today, students should take a look at Vanderbilt and make their own decision. </p>
<p>supernova123 - I was surprised to hear that Vandy splits cross admits with Duke and Brown, too. Especially because very marginal differences in reputation tend to translate into huge advantages in cross admit statistics (Duke’s dean went on record a few years ago saying Duke beat a group of a few other schools including Cornell and Northwestern something like 75-25 or 80-20). But Vandy’s changed rapidly. I also didn’t say it was splitting applicants evenly; I said it was something between 40-60 and 45-55. I’ve heard this from multiple students on campus. Also, consider what I said about Vandy’s most common overlaps in terms of cross admits being Duke, then Yale, and then Harvard. I’m going to assume, for obvious reasons, that Harvard and Yale clobber Vandy. But that leaves Duke and many other top schools that Vandy’s battling with and, more than likely, winning a good number of battles against. If Vandy’s losing to all of its most common cross admit overlaps, it’s not going to maintain a respectable yield %. In fact, since it’s probably losing nearly everyone to Harvard and Yale (as does every college outside of Princeton, Stanford, and MIT), it has to be making up for these losses with very significant win percentages against other top schools, like Duke and the lower ivies. </p>
<p>On the topic of international recognition, Vandy is definitely less well regarded than either Penn or Duke. However, Duke is not significantly well regarded either (Penn may be, but mostly because it’s a member of the ivy league and because Wharton itself is so famous). The fact of the matter is that there are maybe 7 or 8 schools that will give you prestige that is recognized globally. They are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Cambridge, Oxford, and perhaps UC Berkeley or Caltech. With ANY other school, you’re going to suffer a significant decrease in the value of your degree in foreign countries. Furthermore, international rankings are largely predicated on research output, which should be of little or no concern to an undergraduate, except as an indication of international recognition (this may be what ennisthemenace intended, anyway). And even then, a lack of international recognition would harm alumni from schools like Williams and Amherst far more than it would those from Vanderbilt, and yet both are wonderful schools that routinely steal cross admits from even top ivies. I, personally, would not suggest international recognition as an important factor in this consideration. </p>
<p>makennacompton – I’m trying very hard to not be disrespectful here, but I’m very seriously doubting your credibility after your statement about the freshman dorms at Vandy. If there is anything wrong with Vandy, it’s not the Commons. Many consider the Commons to be THE NICEST freshman dorms in the entire country. They are state-of-the-art and absolutely spacious. There’s a reason why Vandy ensures that tours go through the Commons and into an actual Commons dorm. </p>
<p>I’m trying to do very little bashing here, but Duke’s freshman housing is just flat-out inferior to the Commons. The fact that Duke, which is located in Durham, would stick some of its freshmen in rooms without air-conditioning is just absurd. Freshmen at Duke also have to take a bus over to main campus for classes. The residence buildings themselves are nice, but I would still give the Commons the edge there. </p>
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<p>Of what possible relevance is any of that for a high school senior who is looking for a good college experience?</p>
<p>Also, most people would agree that Vanderbilt is much more southern than the ‘University of New Jersey in Durham’.
Nice! 
The University of New Jersey in Durham. Supernova, what state do you hail from? People here in Appalachia said that phrase to me-- but they were the same people who thought Duke was a “State U” instead of a private institution. ignorance is bliss. Duke is better understood in other parts of the nation. It is a dynamic, younger great institution in the US. </p>
<p>My husband was raised in NJ so naturally this particular Duke slur always leaves me a bit speechless. Guess I “pass” as southern since I had Virginia parents even though I have lived in 14 different states–so folks in VA and NC will say that sort of thing to me with no screening. They slip up when they hit me up with that zinger. Nothing could be further from the truth by the way about Duke. Duke’s endowment also requires that Duke admit a higher percentage of students from North and South Carolina. Perhaps you didn’t know this. </p>
<p>Vandy is where Duke was a few years earlier re spread of national/international students being the norm in each class. Despite the lack of air conditioning and the more cramped freshman quarters, Duke son still loved his year on the all freshman brick Trinity College…(perhaps the fourth or fifth incarnation of how Duke makes use of its old Georgian campus, one era it was devoted to housing Duke women) that requires a shuttle bus to get to the Gothic Wonderland. </p>
<p>Back to the OP. If you are dead serious about a career in International Relations, you can get great placements in the very well staffed Vandy in DC program. My Vandy son had an amazing job and it was paid for a full summer through them. However, the Sanford School of Public Policy at Duke is hard core (Vandy does not have anything that mirrors this subschool) and Sanford delivers in world wide placements so take a look at that school as I stated earlier. And take a look at the Gates Foundation at Duke. Duke is also building a campus in China. </p>
<p>pick your emotional IQ fit for four years and if you have a clear pathway academically, research and let what you find out inform your decision.</p>
<p>People above pointing to “number of Rhodes Scholars”, or “number of CEOs” etc should remember that in the aggregate MORE CEOs went to NO NAME schools than ALL of the elite schools put together! That is a nonsensical criterion for undergrad. education. Also, these data hail from history, and VU is an entirely different school than it was even 5 years ago, and discerning people should note that something dynamic is going on at VU, and a transformative phase is underway. Perhaps 20 years ago Duke was regarded as an insular, southern, regional school…an upstart, but is now much better regarded. Same is happening at VU, and as of now, their entering students are of the same caliber as Penn, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth etc. Clinging to past criteria denotes an unwillingness to face up to reality. Look, I went to Duke Medical School, and have great pride in that. I also have a niece at VU now, and have gotten to know the school. Today, I’d pick VU over Duke!</p>
<p>makenna…thanks for reinforcing my diagnosis! The fact that your opinion is shaped by "every Asian (by the way, do you have a problem with Asian applicants? seems like a thorn in your side) in my school was accepted to VU…"completely vindicates my statement that you “have a spectacularly myopic and addled view of VU”. How subjective and parochial! Extrapolating a few instances of personal observation into a broad opinion is the hallmark of the UNscientific method. Where did YOU get educated?</p>
<p>Vanderbilt does not enroll the same overall caliber of students as Duke. SAT scores are meaningless once you get to the top 15 or so private schools since every institution at that level can boast sky high statistics because of the massive influx of qualified applicants.</p>
<p>Vandy only chooses based on SAT scores while other schools like Penn and Duke weigh essays and ECs more closely once an applicant reaches a certain threshold with regards to test scores (SAT/ACT/SAT II). </p>
<p>Go to VU admissions blog and read about the “overall caliber of students” they admit! You are still spewing subjective rubbish, “unburdened by facts”, as seems to be your penchant. It is preposterous for anyone to claim that the caliber of students at VU and Duke is not almost exactly similar. Compare the % of students in top 5% of high school class, SAT/ACT scores etc, leadership positions held etc etc. It is hilarious to see you obdurately cling to your comforting illusions.</p>
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<p>SAT scores at Vandy are higher than at Duke, and that does suggest that Duke has a more holistically based admission process. However, I don’t see how that fact leads to the conclusion that “Vanderbilt does not enroll the same overall caliber of students as Duke.” </p>
<p>While on the subject of SAT scores: the 25th and 75th percentiles for the Class of 2017 at Vanderbilt are 1410 and 1570 (up from 1250 and 1430 just ten years ago). That is pretty good. However, for engineering they are 1470 and 1600. For comparison, at Caltech they are 1490 and 1600 (entire school). I would suppose that Duke Engineering has similar numbers. This shows that there is very little difference between the academic abilities of students at schools of this caliber. </p>
<p><a href=“Inside Vandy: Vanderbilt University's student news source”>http://■■■■■■■.com/n4xlmk8</a>
<a href=“Fact Sheet | About | School of Engineering | Vanderbilt University”>http://engineering.vanderbilt.edu/about/statistics.php</a></p>