<p>Very interesting discussion, but I’m confused about the premise of this thread. Why would the OP post the question “for a friend” on the Michigan forum? How is this information being conveyed to said friend?</p>
<p>Alexandre your incorrect in saying 90% of Vandy’s incoming class is in the top 10%. As reported by Vanderbilt, over 96% of Vandy’s incoming class of 2016 was in the top 10%. The average class rank was the top 2.66%. This is in addition to their significantly higher SAT and ACT scores. </p>
<p>You are entitled to your opinion that Umichigan is the better institution but I respectfully disagree. </p>
<p>I also disagree that Umich has better national reach. </p>
<p>To each his own, though.</p>
<p>Flymetothemoon,</p>
<p>I think that the friend probably doesn’t have a CC account, whereas the OP does. The friend can still view this thread as a non-member and read all the posts.</p>
<p>reddog25 - UMich has the most living alumni on the planet - and therefore the better national reach. I guarantee you, there are some places in this country where most of the population living there have no idea what Vanderbilt even is. </p>
<p>Go out to the middle of Nebraska (for instance.) Ask your average person on the street which school they have ever heard of before. I promise you. Michigan will win every time. </p>
<p>Everyone knows the University of Michigan.</p>
<p>Not sure that’s fair. Some of those who know the name Michigan only know because of the “Fab 5” or the “Big House.” Not everyone knows that Michigan is one of the most elite universities in the country/world. I think most people moderately informed about good academic schools know something about Vanderbilt. It is interesting, though. I was surprised to see how highly folks here talked about McGill.</p>
<p>“I think most people moderately informed about good academic schools know something about Vanderbilt.”</p>
<p>Those same people know about the quality of the University of Michigan as well.</p>
<p>^^^^Absolutely. That was presumed.</p>
<p>This waiting is getting crazy. Looking for any good argument to pass the time.</p>
<p>Michigan vs NYU? Anyone think NYU is gaining ground with full campuses in Abu Dhabi and Shanghai and NYU centers for study around the world?</p>
<p>As a current NYU student, I can tell you NYU should be spending that money instead to make the experience at Washington Square better. They can’t afford to build their own campuses on every major city on the planet… I don’t see why they can’t use the traditional model of partnering with respected institutions around the country. </p>
<p>The quality of NYU’s student body is far too varied. There’s no consistency and it’s terrifying. It really gives off the vibe of a commuter and trade school. If I don’t get into Columbia/Dartmouth/Harvard/Penn, I’m transferring to Michigan.</p>
<p>Alexandre, if we add the figures for Vanderbilt Medicine, Vanderbilt Law, UVA Law, and the newest JHU figures, the playing field is leveled between these two schools.</p>
<p>Vanderbilt Medicine (Currently Enrolled)
<a href=“https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/undergraduate-schools-represented[/url]”>https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/undergraduate-schools-represented</a>
Vanderbilt: 82
Michigan: 5</p>
<p>JHU Medicine 2010-11 (Enrolled)
<a href=“http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/students/academics/catalog/SOMCtlg1011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/students/academics/catalog/SOMCtlg1011.pdf</a>
Michigan: 16
Vanderbilt: 9</p>
<p>UVA Law (Currently Enrolled)
[Class</a> of 2015 Profile](<a href=“http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class15.htm]Class”>http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class15.htm)
Vanderbilt: 15 (Currently Enrolled)
Michigan: 9 (Currently Enrolled)</p>
<p>Vanderbilt Law (Currently Enrolled)
[Vanderbilt</a> Law School :: Class of 2015 colleges](<a href=“http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-students/class-of-2015-profile/class-of-2015-colleges/index.aspx]Vanderbilt”>http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-students/class-of-2015-profile/class-of-2015-colleges/index.aspx)
Vanderbilt: 34
Michigan: 8</p>
<p>So considering these new totals that are fairly adjusted along with what Alexandre already posted, we have…</p>
<p>Total
Michigan: 460
Vanderbilt: 192</p>
<p>Here is the amount of students that apply to medical school from these institutions in the latest year:
<a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/321446/data/2012factstable2-1.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/321446/data/2012factstable2-1.pdf</a>
Michigan: 812
Vanderbilt: 297</p>
<p>I can’t find the law school data but if we assume that the ratio of applicants is similar, then there are ~2.6 times as many Michigan applicants to medical schools/law schools as Vanderbilt applicants.</p>
<p>Vandy does a smidge better than Michigan and may have a smarter overall student body but the top Michigan grads do just as well in law school and medical school admissions.</p>
<p>A degree from one of these schools won’t help or hurt you over a degree from another unless your goal is to matriculate into Michigan Law/Med and Vandy Law/Med.</p>
<p>Problem solved? :)</p>
<p>bud123, PR and Parchment data are not accurate whatsoever. Feel free to post other data as you see fit, but I had to delete the post #48 because it is very misleading.</p>
<p>goldenboy, while I agree with adding Vanderbilt Medical and UVa law as they are both elite, I do not think Vanderbilt Law should be included. So our count stands at 452 to 158.</p>
<p>“I can’t find the law school data but if we assume that the ratio of applicants is similar, then there are ~2.6 times as many Michigan applicants to medical schools/law schools as Vanderbilt applicants.”</p>
<p>That’s consistant with what I have observed in other cases. Elite private universities with 6,000-7,000 undergrads will typically have 500 or so medi/law applicants annually, which works out to roughly 1/3 the number from Michigan. As such, Vanderbilt’s placement ratio into top graduate programs, even on a per capita basis, does not indicate that there is a difference in the quality of the students, at least not among the top 25% of the students at both universities.</p>
<p>“Vandy does a smidge better than Michigan and may have a smarter overall student body but the top Michigan grads do just as well in law school and medical school admissions.”</p>
<p>Vandy does not do a smidge better or worse. Once you add Vandy Medical, which is indeed fair, the two are pretty even. There is no evidence other than SAT ranges, that would suggest that Vandy undergrads are smarter. </p>
<p>“A degree from one of these schools won’t help or hurt you over a degree from another unless your goal is to matriculate into Michigan Law/Med and Vandy Law/Med.”</p>
<p>Agreed 100%. The undergraduate education received at those two universities is excellent.</p>
<p>Alex, Wow, no free speech allowed here I guess. Some data posted you don’t agree with and zap …it’s gone.</p>
<p>“Alexandre your incorrect in saying 90% of Vandy’s incoming class is in the top 10%. As reported by Vanderbilt, over 96% of Vandy’s incoming class of 2016 was in the top 10%. The average class rank was the top 2.66%. This is in addition to their significantly higher SAT and ACT scores.”</p>
<p>I was merely quoting the CDS reports. Michigan has not reported high school class rankings for the classes of 2016 and 2017, but for all of the previous years, 92% graduated among the top 10% of their high school class. Vanderbilt has hovered between 85% and 90% graduating class. </p>
<p>Also, according to their respective CDS reports, the average unweighed cumulative graduating high school GPA of Vanderbilt and Michigan students are also almost identical (approximately 3.8 at both universities).</p>
<p>[CDS</a> C](<a href=“http://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2012]CDS”>http://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2012)</p>
<p>[Office</a> of Budget & Planning: Common Data Set](<a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning)</p>
<p>With the exception of SAT/ACT ranges, there is no difference between the students at both universities. It is clear that Vanderbilt places far more weight on standardized testing then Michigan. It is not wrong that they should do so, but it is not accurate to compare students at two universities using a metric that those two universities do not value the same way. Besides, I am fairly certain that they report standardized test scores differently. </p>
<p>“You are entitled to your opinion that Umichigan is the better institution but I respectfully disagree.”</p>
<p>I should make it clear that while I believe that Michigan is better than Vanderbilt overall, I do not think that the quality of the undergraduate experience (academic or otherwise) is better or worse at Michigan. Vanderbilt will provide as strong an undergraduate education in most fields (Engineering and Mathematics being the notable exceptions). When choosing between those two universities, cost of attendance and general fit should trump all other considerations since they are so close in terms of academic quality and reputation.</p>
<p>“I also disagree that Umich has better national reach.”</p>
<p>I confess this is hard to prove. I think Vanderbilt will have a stronger reputation in most of the South and Southeast, while Michigan will probably have a stronger reputation in the Midwest and West Coast. In the Northeast, both universities will have solid reputations, but I think Michigan has a larger presence in the NYC/NJ/PA and DC markets.</p>
<p>“To each his own, though.”</p>
<p>Indubitably!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Those numbers are for admitted students, not the students who actually enrolled. For enrolled students see:</p>
<p>[The</a> Vanderbilt Profile<em>|</em>Undergraduate Admissions<em>|</em>Vanderbilt University](<a href=“Vanderbilt At A Glance | Undergraduate Admissions | Vanderbilt University”>Vanderbilt At A Glance | Undergraduate Admissions | Vanderbilt University)</p>
<p>and for admitted students see:</p>
<p>[Class</a> of 2016: highest academic profile in Vanderbilt history - InsideVandy: Administration](<a href=“http://www.insidevandy.com/news/administration/article_b41dfd84-76de-11e1-a506-0019bb30f31a.html]Class”>http://www.insidevandy.com/news/administration/article_b41dfd84-76de-11e1-a506-0019bb30f31a.html)</p>
<p>The 90% number is correct. You can also see how the SAT scores of the enrolled students are less than those of the admitted students, yet still very high.</p>
<p>bud, free speech is allowed and welcome, but propaganda is not. Posting the data you did was innocent, I am sure, but flawed and misleading. PR is extremely flawed and I will not usually allow it on this forum unless it is benign in nature. Some of the data I have seen PR publish is downright criminal. Parchment is not much better than PR is bases the data you presented purely on predictions, not on actual fact.</p>
<p>But Alex, why not just challenge and contest as you usually do?</p>
<p>And SAT scores must mean…something. And the “better” schools always seem to have higher SAT scores.</p>
<p>No one has claimed the top 25% at each school are qualitatively different. The suggestion is that the bottom 50% at Vandy is stronger than the bottom 50% at UMich. Just stands to reason since UMich has to take a large percentage of in-state students.</p>
<p>
It should be duly noted that there’s no evidence that OOS Michigan students are smarter than IS Michigan students. I think this is a myth-in fact, the top 10% of U of M students are most likely all ISers who felt that Michigan was good enough of a deal academically and financially that there’s no reason to go to another school out of state and pay a lot more money.</p>
<p>The OOSers at U of M presumably applied everywhere when they were high school seniors and Michigan was most likely the “best” school they got into.</p>
<p>
Come on Alexandre, Vanderbilt Law is definitely elite and its one of the top regional law schools (others include Texas, UCLA, and USC) that would merit students turning down a T14 like Penn, UVA, UMich, Duke, etc. if the scholarship situation was excellent.</p>
<p>If top 20 medical schools and business schools can be considered elite like Cornell Johnson in Business and UCLA Geffen in Medicine, then so can Vandy Law.</p>
<p>I do not challenge and contest statistics that have no counter data. Cross-admit data is hard to prove, which is why I took back my own statement earlier. From the little I have seen on CC, Michigan has usually won the cross-admit battle with Vanderbilt, but that is based on my own limited observations, and it is by no means scientific or conclusive. </p>
<p>SAT scores mean something finalchild. But they mean a lot more to private universities. Public universities use them as a general guideline. Private universities use them as a publicity stunt. I have not seen a reason to suspect that the bottom 50% at Michigan is weaker than the bottom 50% at Vandy. Perhaps the bottom 10%, but not much beyond that. The top 50% at Michigan is comparable to the student body you would find at any private elite will the bottom 10% is probably weaker. Strength of student body is certainly a factor, but I have not seen a substantial difference in the student body at the two universities I attended, so I doubt there is a substantial difference between Michigan and most other selective private universities. Any such difference is an illusion, one made potent by the artificial inflation of the importance private universities assign standardized test scores and further enhanced by the liberty they take in reporting those scores. It came to light that Emory was adding 60 points (out of 1600) to their mid 50% range. Private universities operate very differently from public universities, it does not mean that their student bodies are strong. The student body at Michigan (and other public elites) will match that at most private elites pretty evenly. Unfortunately, private universities have been under tremendous pressure to outperform public universities in order attract students that they have been manipulating data for decades. If a proper investigation were to be conducted, virtually all private universities would be find guilty of rigging. Public universities are already severely scrutinized and properly audited, so it is unlikely that their data has been manipulated.</p>
<p>[Does</a> it matter that an elite university lied to college rankers for years? - The Answer Sheet - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/does-it-matter-that-an-elite-university-lied-to-college-rankers-for-years/2012/08/22/e89b39d2-ec68-11e1-aca7-272630dfd152_blog.html]Does”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/does-it-matter-that-an-elite-university-lied-to-college-rankers-for-years/2012/08/22/e89b39d2-ec68-11e1-aca7-272630dfd152_blog.html)</p>
<p>But surely you don’t believe the actual test takers (the students) are a publicity stunt. Straight 750s on the SAT means something compared to straight 650s, or whatever score difference you want to look at. So you think Harvard’s test scores might mean something relative to UMich but Vandy’s don’t? Sounds like you believe the rise in prominence at schools like Vandy and Wash U are entirely manufactured.</p>
<p>To the other poster, just based on test scores alone, whether it’s due to the OOS enrollees or IS, there is a percentage of students that are relatively lower.</p>
<p>finalchild, I just think that the data needs to be properly audited for accuracy and consistency. Emory, Claremont McKenna and George Washington are not isolated occurrences. Until the data is thoroughly audited, I will not trust the SAT and ACT ranges as an accurate indicator of student body strength. </p>
<p>“Sounds like you believe the rise in prominence at schools like Vandy and Wash U are entirely manufactured.”</p>
<p>Not exactly finalchild. I just don’t think they have risen in prominence in the first place. Beyond Mr. Morse’s (USNWR) target audience (high schoolers and overly concerned parents), I do not think Vanderbilt and WUSTL have risen at all. Their peer assessment rating has remained constant since the early 1990s (around #25 nationally among research universities) and their departmental rankings have not improved, suggesting that their faculties have not either.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s fair to associate every private school with the dishonesty of SAT/ACT disclosure that has occurred at a handful of privates. Yes, some schools do conveniently report stats that are most advantageous to them, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with looking at score ranges with a dose of skepticism, but they shouldn’t be completely discredited. Even if Vandy does spruce up their SAT/ACT reports a bit (and I have no reason to believe they do), their scores are still quite a bit higher than Michigans. Also according to Vanderbilt and according to Michigans own reported Class of 2016 profile, more studens were in the top 10% of HS class at Vandy than at Michigan. </p>
<p>Assuming cost is equal, I also don’t think more cross admits would choose Michigan over Vandy by any means, certainly for undergraduate. </p>
<p>Right or wrong, selectivity does mean something to students. When a student gets into a school that admits 11-12% vs 38%, I think it’s tough for a student do chose the significantly less selective school without hesitation, even if the two schools are of a similar caliber. Justified or not, it is worth something, especially to impressionable high school students.</p>