vassar vs. kenyon

I’ve been reading about it for the last hour. Honestly, I think it’s a good thing that the task force is taking it seriously and I hope that many of their plans to help lessen the binge drinking make a difference. I’m not putting my head in the sand. I’m just saying that, even after reading this morning about Kenyon’s drinking issues, these problems exist on many, many campuses.

Not to this extent. Everything is relative. It is all a matter of degree.

If you were forced to bet a year’s salary, would you consider the odds before deciding where to place your bet ?

P.S. What I will write in favor of Kenyon College is that the campus is gorgeous.

There are many schools that have created Alcohol/Drug task forces besides Kenyon, such as Lehigh, Dartmouth, Amherst to name just a few. Binge drinking is a pervasive problem at many schools. Some schools have banned hard alcohol on campus as a result of these findings, i.e., Dartmouth.

Regarding Kenyon (or any school) the best source (but not perfect) for campus drinking, drug, and rape statistics is the Clery report. All schools have to report these numbers annually. In Kenyon’s case when you calculate average drinking and drug infraction incidence (taking into account size of student body) over last 3 years, Kenyon’s incidence is high relative to many schools of similar size like Hamilton, Bowdoin and Williams. Again, these stats are not perfect and can reflect school by school reporting differences, or even how actively campus police/RAs, etc, are looking for drugs/alcohol, but it is decent data nonetheless.

Everything helps. A main reason that Kenyon suffers so much is its small size & rural location. Several studies have identified the consistencies among colleges with severe binge drinking problems. The three that I recall are: Small enrollment, rural location & large presence of a particular race. Kenyon has all three.

P.S. A concern with reporting stats is that the school only needs to report on campus occurrences. The adjacent corn fields, for example, are not included.

P.P.S. Interesting post about Lehigh University in another thread. “Lehigh Drops Out of Top 50”.

Lehigh University has long had an usually high incidence of substance abuse. Unfortunately, it is–or was–located near a main stopping point for illegal drug shipments according to a federal task force about a decade ago. So the problem is not limited to small, rural, white LACs, but it is much more severe at some schools compared to others.

@publisher Schools have to report off-campus infractions and arrests in the Clery report, so I was including those in my analysis

I agree regarding the similarity between Wes and Vassar.

In the Midwest, Oberlin, Grinnell, and Kenyon come to mind – Oberlin and Kenyon for strength in music/humanities and Grinnell for vibe: liberal but friendly, not militant. But all three are in very small towns that would feel much more rural than Poughkeepsie.

Macalester might be similar in some ways, and it is in a city – a big city. But it would feel more urban than Vassar.

Carleton maybe? But it isn’t really known for outstanding humanities, though being a top LAC kind of implies strength in them. Carleton is liberal but not militant, pretty friendly and down to earth, and 30-45 minutes from a big city. Northfield has a population of about 20000 (vs. Poughkeepsie’s ~30000).

St. Olaf has more of a humanities-rich feel than Carleton.

Binge drinking is a problem at many schools, large and small and there have been tragedies at many schools. I can’t recall the source, but I’ve read that greek life, high varsity athletic participation, and rural location each contribute to campus drinking culture. Many students choose not to partake at lots of schools but, like the “how to avoid lax bro culture” in another thread, for students who are looking to avoid a dominant scene, it is helpful to really talk to a lot of students and possibly spend time on campus on a Wed (usually a big party night) or weekend night and see for themselves. Even then, it is hard to put in perspective – my non-drinking high school senior was shocked by the party scene at some schools, but now partakes, usually in moderation, I think. So what a 17-18 year old thinks may change.

I was one of the parents who described our experience with Vassar and Kenyon. Kenyon is a wonderful school, wonderful faculty, engaged students. It was the first school each of my kids visited and their first choice early in the process. Eventually, it came off the list, with size and location being part of that decision. But what was right for them is not a predictor for anyone else. My perception of the student body from visits plus knowing several recent grads and current students, is that there is a sophistication about many of the students that feels “urban/east coast.” I would contrast that with, say, Grinnell, which is also a wonderful school with wonderful faculty and engaged students, but feels more “midwest nice” than “east coast cool.” Of course, there are students who don’t fit that description at either school. Your mileage may vary.

For folks who know, I have been genuinely curious about how the Kenyon greek life housing clusters feels to non-greek life students and whether the chapter houses can be used for parties or not.

I’m going to agree with @Publisher in that while all colleges have drinking, there are some where it is much more problematic. The same goes for drugs. You can find them anyplace, but at some schools it may be a little pot, while at others it’s the hard stuff being dealt and imbibed on a much more frequent basis. There are definite differences in drug and alcohol climates at different schools.
I’m going to have to disagree with the lovely @Lindagaf on Vassar. V has more economic diversity and is less monied than most of her peers. But I do think her ‘over earnest’ comment has merit.

“Alcohol is prevalent at (insert college name here), with binge drinking a significant concern. The impact of excessive alcohol consumption includes sexual misconduct, vandalism, medical traumas, and long term health effects.”

You’ve called attention to internal documents, not a comparative report. Kenyon’s purpose in this case was to look directly, honestly and even harshly at their own institution for the determination of needed change. This should be regarded as a positive development. The analysis – though I haven’t read it fully – does not appear intended to compare Kenyon to other colleges by the standards of social science. For the purposes of this thread, which requires meaningful comparisons across institutions, the documents would seem to provide little insight.

@merc81: If you need a comparative report, just look at the Clery report cited in post #22 above.

Also, it might help if you read Kenyon College’s “internal report”. I think that you might rethink your comments posted above.

Yes, I should read it fully. Readers of the thread can consider that I haven’t as of yet when considered my comments.

Have you visited Vassar? did you feel that it had a ‘wannabe New Yorker vibe’ that was less welcoming than Kenyon? If you haven’t visited, I would get my skates on and visit before committing to a school ED- the cost of a quick trip will only be a fraction of the cost of a getting there & finding you aren’t happy!

@prezbucky’s list is a good summary of ‘usual suspects’! There is a lot of applicant overlap between them.

IMO, the crucial thing about these schools, which appeal to so many of the same kids, and which are similar in so many fundamental ways, actually do ‘feel’ very different (as you can see from the above posts).

I knew- before my collegekid did- which of these schools she would end up choosing, b/c I saw how she responded to it, viscerally, at re-visit day. She hadn’t even been that keen to go that day- she had already visited the school, done an overnight, sat in on a class, etc, and figured she knew pretty much all she needed to know (plus, it was the last of the re-visits & she was burning out). Her response to the day was just different than to the other schools: it was clear that she felt at home there, in a way that she had not at any of the other, pretty similar, schools.

tl;dr: Go with your instincts- where did you feel most at home? Both schools are very campus-centric- that will be home for a long 4 years. Trust yourself.

I’d like to chime in and just share my daughter’s experience— she is currently a freshman at Kenyon. We live in Ohio and most of the students at her high school chose to attend OSU, OhioU, Miami U or Dayton. The drinking/party culture at those schools did not appeal to her and she was looking for a very different college experience. Vasser, Grinnell, Carleton were all on her list— she was looking for many of the same things the OP noted. I will tell you so far, she has nothing but excellent things to say about Kenyon— she absolutely loves it. She says there are plenty of things to do on the weekend besides go to parties… often times so many different things that she has to choose one over the other when she’d like to do both. And in addition, my introverted kid says she actually enjoys going to the parties on campus… they are fun, “people actually dance” lol her words, and sometimes she chooses to have a beer and other times not. No one cares either way. She’s an athlete and enjoys hanging out with the team, but also has other friends she goes out with as well. She is busy all the time… I wish she’d call more! We are extremely close so it’s an adjustment not hearing from her every day but I am so thankful she is loving Kenyon as much as she is and is not homesick (yet at least!) I know it’s still early, but I honestly didn’t think the adjustment to college would be so smooth. She says it is an incredibly supportive community and the people there are very down to earth, interesting and like minded when it comes to being serious about genuinely learning new things etc.
Interestingly enough tonight when I called she had just come from a mandatory meeting at her dorm (bi monthly I believe) called beer and sex LOL where they talk about drinking responsibly on campus etc. So it seems the administration is not blind to what from my perspective seems like “average” college drinking… but then I’m comparing it to what I know about schools like Dayton and OU… where drinking is pretty much the only weekend activity available. Just the perspective of one student… but this was a thread I would have stalked like a hawk a year ago when we were looking, and I am so glad she made the decision to attend Kenyon— So much so my middle child is considering it after seeing how happy her big sis is.

To the OP (if still in the building?),

Both Kenyon and Vassar are excellent schools. You seemed to like both. And, yes, despite its isolation, Kenyon’s campus is gorgeous (Vassar’s is no slouch either). What do young people call it? Hogwarts-like?

Unless something seriously knocks either school out of contention between now and November+, apply to both. If you’re accepted at both, and both remain top choices, you’ll have a chance to take even closer looks, read up, make contacts even. Ultimately, you’ll feel one more than the other. There are no wrong choices here.

@Hapworth, OP was talking about applying ED- hence the need to choose.

Wall street Journal/ Times Higher Education College Rankings published September 6, 2018 show starting salaries after graduation at:

Vassar College–$49,267
Kenyon College–$44,233

Median Starting Salary of Alumni

Kenyon: $48,600
Vassar: $47,500

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/kenyon-college-3065
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/vassar-college-2895

(U.S. News, 2018.)

To the OP: have you done overnights at both? Visited class, met with students or faculty in activities/departments of interest? What we are saying is: both are great schools, a lot of overlap in culture. Vassar can be accessible to NYC and the eastern seaboard, which can be a plus for some, while Kenyon is very much a self-contained residential community, which is part of its charm for others. Vassar does not have a history of football or greek life, whereas Kenyon has several teams that are ranked nationally in the top 10 and which hope to win a national championship, including swimming and diving and Men’s soccer, and it has greek life.

If you felt a deeper connection to one, after full visits, then go with your heart.

Apparently the WSJ/THE salaries are not starting salaries: “The Salary column is earnings 10 years after entering college, reflecting multiple years of data, while the Default Rate shows the percentage of people in default on their loans after their repayment period begins. These salary and debt data are available only for people who had federal aid.”

The Default Rate for Kenyon College = 2.0

The Default Rate for Vassar College = 0.3