Vegetarian Conversion Thread (not exactly)!

College Confidential Community
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Do you think it's right to deny your child cigarettes?

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<p>First of all, denying a child meat and denying a child cigarettes are two VERY different things...whether who think meat is bad or not (it is illegal for a child to smoke a cigarette). Smoking IS a choice that should be made by someone who is responsible enough to understand the harmful affects of smoking. A parent should deny their child the right to smoke until they reach that age. So why is it different with meat? MEAT DOESN'T KILL. You allowed your son to make an uneducated LIFE decision, and that isn't cool. Live a little and have a burger. </p>

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"i feel sorry for kids who are raised as vegans....just like i feel sorry for kids who are raised with religion."</p>

<p>ooh, surfette, I think we might be twins separated at birth.

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<p>Yay, I'd like that. I'm an only child :(
but I have a feeling that we'd be shot in most states for voicing this opinion</p>

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<p>By the way...I don't mean any offense. </p>

<p>I am just a strictly "don't let other people control your life" kind of girl....which is probably why I don't dig organized religion.</p>

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<p>^I agree with surfette completely. It should be up to the child to make his/her own decision.</p>

<p>I may be a meat-eater, but I'm not going to criticize vegans/vegetarians. My mom used to have lupus a long time ago and her doctor (I never trust doctors) suggested she have her salivary glands removed, which would have caused the inside of her mouth to rot. Obviously she didn't want that to happen, so she researched ways she could get rid of her lupus.</p>

<p>Then she decided to be a raw-food vegan (too extreme for me haha) to raise her health. Her lupus went away a couple of months later, and she has been a vegan since then (I think 5 years now).</p>

<p>I have had no serious health problems whatsoever, but if I ever did, I would probably try a vegetarian/vegan diet. I think my diet isn't bad right now. I don't eat junk food and I eat a fair amount of veggies/fruits. I don't really eat much cheese. I eat alot of fish and poultry, not so much pork and beef. I drink alot of milk, but my mom buys organic milk because of the hormones in regular milk. Organic milk tastes alot better than regular milk anyway.</p>

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<p>"First of all, denying a child meat and denying a child cigarettes are two VERY different things...whether who think meat is bad or not (it is illegal for a child to smoke a cigarette). Smoking IS a choice that should be made by someone who is responsible enough to understand the harmful affects of smoking. A parent should deny their child the right to smoke until they reach that age. So why is it different with meat? MEAT DOESN'T KILL. You allowed your son to make an uneducated LIFE decision, and that isn't cool. Live a little and have a burger."</p>

<p>Quite simply, you are WRONG.</p>

<p>Across the board, meat-eating has been conclusively linked to increased risks of heart disease, cancer (most forms), stroke, diabetes, hypertension, osteoporosis, and many other degenerative diseases.</p>

<p>MEAT DOES KILL. </p>

<p>And, it does so in numbers far greater than tobacco, once you add up all those diseases I mentioned. Do a little research and get educated!</p>

<p>Having a burger is NOT LIVING.</p>

<p>Maybe I can convince my son to join the forum so he can tell you himself just how 'deprived' he is.</p>

<p>He was brought up according to what his parents thought was the very best lifestyle. ALL PARENTS do that with their kids (at least all well-meaning, non-abusive parents) We each raise our kids according to what we think is right.</p>

<p>Quite frankly, I think it is child abuse to get the child hooked on cancer-causing agents like meat, before the kid is mature enough to decide for himself.</p>

<p>Incidentally, even though my son was raised vegetarian, by the time he got a little older, he decided FOR HIMSELF to continue being a vegetarian. Don't you think he could have been sneaking hamburgers behind my back if he had wanted to?</p>

<p>Nope, he didn't. He's a smart kid and he decided for himself. I just gave him a strong foundation with which to make his decision, just like I exposed him to various religions and allowed him to decide on his own spiritual path without any dogma.</p>

<p>Anyway, you're just jealous. ;-)</p>

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<p>surfette, I agree with you about religious dogma. That's why I raised my son without religion. (spirituality, yes, religion, no)</p>

<p>But raising him without meat is not in the same category. It is more in the category of teaching him to use a seat belt. Some things are just givens. Wearing a seat belt is a given. Eating plant-based foods is a given. NOT eating dead animals is a given.</p>

<p>Speaking of which, young children quite commonly decide to quit eating meat when they find out the meat is actually a dead animal. MANY children go thru this, but the parents usually coax them back into eating it, so after awhile the child forgets all about it.</p>

<p>The only difference here is that my son was encouraged to trust this instinctual aversion to meat.</p>

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<p>Humans are omnivorous. I don't care strongly either way (though I like my meat marinated, well-done, and with a sprinkle of lemon juice and a sprig of parsley) - up to you.</p>

<p>However, when you say that meat is detrimental to health in ANY quantity...</p>

<p>THAT I take issue with.</p>

<p>Y'know, this is what I hate about nutrition and health in the media these days; even if you get past the misinformation, you'll find conflicting evidence pointing every which way.</p>

<p>Even semi-authoritative websites - results of a quick search:</p>

<p>Pro-meat:
<a href="http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?Id=7657%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?Id=7657&lt;/a>
Con-meat:
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061215/hl_hsn/kidswithhighiqsgrowuptobevegetarians%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061215/hl_hsn/kidswithhighiqsgrowuptobevegetarians&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>What the heck? Opinions shift every other day!</p>

<p>From what I can tell, it comes more down to ethics, since science can (OMG!) be bent in any direction when it comes to this matter, at least at the moment. Everyone's got their own interests in mind, and every study is limited in scope (unless you propose to study MILLIONS of people over YEARS). Everything is skewed; I'm not so blind as to think that scientific evidence from these studies can't be. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Hey, I'm not denouncing ethics. If you're against it for ethical reasons, go you, and I'm not being sarcastic! You're rungs above me on the ethical ladder, that's for sure. :p</p>

<p>But, don't tote around highly controversial evidence that changes daily as though it was conclusive proof, 'kay? We omnivores don't particularaly appreciate that.</p>

<p>Well, personally, I came to the conclusion that since nature lets me eat meat and veggies (unlike strict carnivores/herbivores), I'll have both, thanks. I'm a strict subscriber to the old adage, "moderation in all things."</p>

<p>BTW, about the "living" aspect, I'd say that my quality of life would go down if I had no meat. I do love me a good filet or a juicy steak sometimes, y'know? So hand me my spare ribs, and screw the decade I could live as a prune! :D</p>

<p>I mean, if you put it that way, why take a vacation? Every time you fly, there's a chance you'll crash, so to live longer, I should stick to my routine, right?</p>

<p>Or why go outside in the sun? Every time I do, I increase my chance of skin cancer (and probably other cancers, considering the amount of harmful radiation we get these days...), so I ought to stay inside in the dark, huh?</p>

<p>Or why BREATHE ATMOSPHERIC AIR, considering each time I do, I inhale airborne microorganisms that might kill me, and trace carcinogens, etc, that might lead to all manners of unpleasant things? I ought to invest in a sterile bubble of oxygen! :D</p>

<p>Heh.</p>

<p>As for the resistance being instinctual, I'd have to disagree. I had no qualms when I found out, and most of my friends didn't either, so...</p>

<p>Besides, one can argue that we are taught a love for cute fluffy things, and that killing things is bad. After all, it is instinctual to kill prey, as it is to eat anything edible - we've simply risen above that. Or rather, you vegans have simply risen above that.</p>

<p>As for me, I'm content being a plane-flying, sun-bathing, air-breathing, meat-chomping savage who'll die young! :D</p>

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<p>"But, don't tote around highly controversial evidence that changes daily as though it was conclusive proof, 'kay?"</p>

<p>I agree with you that we can find experts both for and against meat. In fact, I would take it a step further and say that this is true of virtually ANYTHING controversial - in fact, I firmly believe that most of us already have our minds made up about whatever we believe and THEN we find the evidence to support that belief so that we will feel better about ourselves. Humans don't like feeling that they are making a bad choice about something, whether it be religion, diet, politics, or whatever.</p>

<p>So, I do agree with you that there is conflicting info out there. Atkins and Mercola advocate pro-meat and fat, the very opposite of McDougall and Ornish, who both advocate low-fat vegetarian.</p>

<p>There are plenty of diets all claiming to be 'balanced' and yet completely contradictory to one another.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, having said all that, statistics don't lie. Well, as the saying goes, figures don't lie but liars figure. The truth is that vegetarians DO have much lower rates of most degenerative diseases. That is not disputed even among meat advocates. Ask any doctor if a low-meat, low-fat diet is healthier than a high-fat hamburger-and-steaks diet and s/he will have to admit that it is.</p>

<p>This is based on scientific studies and they are so numerous that it cannot be denied. </p>

<p>To say that meat does not contribute to heart disease and cancer is like saying that cigarettes do not contribute to lung cancer and emphasema.</p>

<p>In your 'pro-meat' link above, it says:</p>

<p>"But published evidence does not yet suggest that a solely plant based diet is the optimum diet for everyone."</p>

<p>You must realize that there is a distinction between vegetarianism and veganism. When they say 'solely plant based diet' they are referring to veganism. Veganism is more hardcore than mere vegetarianism and, while providing even more health benefits for many people, has a very few risks of its own concerning B-12 and protein. These risks are easily avoided, so it can be very healthy if done properly, but the fact is that most reported problems with a vegetarian diet had to do with being vegan or raw foodists, which are in a league above and beyond vegetarianism.</p>

<p>Also, your article simply was making the point that they had not yet determined whether it was the omittance of meat or the inclusion of more fruits and veggies that accounted for the improved health and decreased disease risks.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that it DOES NOT MATTER which it is, so it is a moot point. Even if it is just that more produce is consumed, obviously the produce displaces the meat, so the end result is still the same: better health.</p>

<p>Also, these are but 2 of many thousands of articles. I have read others that DID show conclusively that cancer cells proliferate in bodies that consume animal protein and cannot do so in the absence of animal protein. And everyone know that there is NO cholesterol in the plant kingdom.</p>

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<p>"I'd say that my quality of life would go down if I had no meat."</p>

<p>Smokers feel that way about their cigs, until they get lung cancer and see what a bad quality of life REALLY is.</p>

<p>Anyway, if you want to eat meat, then eat meat!!! Why oh why do meat-eaters get so damn defensive when vegetarians explain their views? I never said anything about YOU eating meat; I only shared why <em>I</em> don't eat meat. My previous post was in response to surfette who made it very clear that she thought I was depriving my son of one of the joys in life. I was trying to point out that to a vegetarian, eating meat is NOT a joy, and our quality of life is NOT decreased when we quit eating it. In fact, it is the opposite - we are opened up to a whole new world of wonderful foods that we didn't know existed, and we feel lighter, happier, and have more energy. I know this is hard for you to understand, but please do try to understand that we really do NOT miss meat! What you are forgetting is that we once ate meat so we have a basis for comparison, whereas someone who has never been a vegetarian only knows 1 side of the issue. Do you think I don't remember what a steak tastes like? Of course I do! I no longer view it as something desirable.</p>

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Incidentally, even though my son was raised vegetarian, by the time he got a little older, he decided FOR HIMSELF to continue being a vegetarian. Don't you think he could have been sneaking hamburgers behind my back if he had wanted to?

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<p>Well of course HE has now chosen to live a meat-free life, but you, as a parent, allowed him to make this choice when he was uneducated. And I'm not just talking about being uneducated about the facts and figures concerning meat, but you allowed him to make this life choice before ever trying it. How uneducated can you get? To deny a child his/her right to make such an important decision is unforgivable in my opinion.</p>

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<p>"when you say that meat is detrimental to health in ANY quantity..."</p>

<p>Ahem, just WHEN did I say that???</p>

<p>I didn't!</p>

<p>In fact, I said the opposite - I said that if people would just cut their meat intake by half, they would get tremendous benefit to their health as well as help the environment.</p>

<p>It is not a black-and-white issue. Studies have shown that Asian cultures who eat traditional Asian diets have drastically lower incidences of heart disease, various cancers, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc. But then when they start opening McDonald's over there and they start eating the SAD (Standard American Diet) they start having the same diseases as Americans.</p>

<p>Well, the people eating the traditional Asian diet were not vegetarian. But, they ate a lot LESS meat than the SAD.</p>

<p>So obviously if there is a connection between meat-eating, it stands to reason that someone who eats a LOT of meat would have more risk factors than someone who eats a LITTLE meat.</p>

<p>There are many other factors to health. I've known vegans who smoked cigarettes. Say, huh??? Obviously in their case they were doing it for the animals and not for themselves.</p>

<p>But, these studies already took other lifestyle factors (smoking, exercise, genetics, attitude, etc.) into account, and STILL the vegetarians had less risk. The conclusion was that it was indeed the MEAT that was the determining factor in the different disease risk rates.</p>

<p>I would be thrilled, for the sake of the planet and the animals, and yes, the humans too, if people just CUT BACK on their meat consumption. Never did I say that there was no value in just cutting back. Of course there is MORE value, imo, in becoming total vegetarian, but any improvement is a good thing.</p>

<p>I applaud anyone who cuts back on meat. Please don't twist my words.</p>

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<p>Meh. Cholesterol is not the be-all of evil. I'll take the artery clogging if I can have my burger. ;)</p>

<p>But I'm sincerely apologetic - I made the mistake (and just this once, darn it) of not reading through the entire thread before posting. Hey, to each their own, eh? Or perhaps, pick your own poison. :p</p>

<p>Hope there's no hard feelings.</p>

<p>And yes, if you don't like meat, don't eat it - all the better for you. I'm willing to bear the statistics, though, personally and sadly, for meat.</p>

<p>BTW, I am cutting back severely on meats and poultry - from calculations, I consume about 4 ounces at most, daily, cut back from about 8 ounces, because my mantra is moderation! :)</p>

<p>That's about one filet/small steak a day. Actually, since I'm Chinese, my tastes make it easier to do so.</p>

<p>Again, I'm sorry. It's just that I've met a lot of vegetarians who try to coerce me into their lifestyle beyond limits that I think they should take, so I'm a little touchy.</p>

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<p>"Well of course HE has now chosen to live a meat-free life, but you, as a parent, allowed him to make this choice when he was uneducated. And I'm not just talking about being uneducated about the facts and figures concerning meat, but you allowed him to make this life choice before ever trying it. How uneducated can you get? To deny a child his/her right to make such an important decision is unforgivable in my opinion."</p>

<p>This is really hilarious! I do a positive thing for my kid and you say it is 'unforgiveable'????</p>

<p>Wow, that is really laughable. I can't wait to show my son your post. He will get a good laugh.</p>

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<p>P.S. I really admire vegetarians. It's a noble cause and I AM jealous that you can be satisfied as a vegan....I tried, and failed....I just think that it's a decision that everyone should make on their own.</p>

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<p>Your son will never get to appreciate how "positive" it is because he will never have the luxury of actually trying meat.</p>

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<p>But, lealdragon, you do come off as a little...pretentious.</p>

<p>I mean, your way of thinking is not the only way. Taking that tone...I dunno, but it immediately antagonized me, and I'm not that easy to antagonize.</p>

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<p>"surfette, I agree with you about religious dogma. That's why I raised my son without religion. (spirituality, yes, religion, no)"</p>

<p>That's one thing I find difficult to grasp -- spirituality without religion. It's a popular saying: 'Spirituality yes, religion no.' But in my view, the two go hand-in-hand. How can one be spiritual without having at least some religious beliefs that are established in ones mind (personal dogmas)? They need not come from firmly established religions such as Christianity or Hinduism, but firm beliefs in this context are still religious beliefs, and yes, dogmas, albeit personal ones. Without religious dogmas -- whether organized or personal -- spirituality has nothing to base itself on. Spirituality needs some kind of anchor; without it, it is rather wishy-washy and weak. Likewise, religion without spirituality is dry and ultimately pointless.</p>

<p>I think a lot of this contemporary sentiment of 'spirituality yes, religion no' is is simply a product of a whole lotta religious people not being spiritual. This sucks. But this does not mean that organized religion is devoid of spirituality; it just means that many of their followers are failing to recognize it in their respective faiths. As a cradle Catholic, you yourself are likely aware of the great many and diverse flavors of spirituality that have sprouted up under the Catholic umbrella throughout the centuries (and, despite the striking diversity, embraced by the Church).</p>

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<p>"Hope there's no hard feelings."</p>

<p>No, not at all. Apology accepted!</p>

<hr>

<p>surfette: There have been a few times when my son got a pizza or a taco and it had a bit of meat in it that fell off the serving spoon. I think once or twice he might have even gotten it in his mouth. He immediately grossed out and spit it out. </p>

<p>I do find it amusing that you still think I denied my son a chance to try meat and decide for himself. Let me ask you this: At just what age do you think I should have done that? 6? 8? 12? 18?</p>

<p>C'mon, surfette, don't you think he could have tried meat at any time, when he was in kindergarten??? Of course he could have. And some children raised vegetarian DO rebel and eat it anyway. Usually that happens when the parents make it into a religion. Something that is very 'taboo' suddenly becomes appealing and the kid wants to rebel. </p>

<p>Well, I tried to avoid that trap by not making too big a deal about it. I was very nonchalant. I simply told him that meat was once an animal and animals are our friends and why would we want to eat our friends? He seemed to agree and it was never a problem. </p>

<p>I admire your admitting that you are jealous and tried but failed. Did you try to be vegan? Honestly, I think it's a lot easier if people would just try to incorporate more veggie meals into their diet, and just TRY THEM, instead of making a strict rule 'No more meat!' and failing.</p>

<p>Don't be so hard on yourself. Be open-minded and ask some of your veggie friends to cook you some yummy veggie foods. Ask for a veggie burger next time you go for a burger. You just might be pleasantly surprised that your taste buds begin to change!</p>

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<p>Edit: surfette, I am not a vegan and neither is my son. He loves his pizza and pasta! Would you believe it, sometimes I actually feel a little apologetic when I am around vegans! Yeah! </p>

<p>But then I quickly shrug it off. I don't like playing the game of 'who's the purest of us all' - that is just really silly.</p>

<p>As far as him 'never getting a chance to try meat' - do you think I keep him locked in a cage or something?</p>

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<p>"But, lealdragon, you do come off as a little...pretentious.</p>

<p>I mean, your way of thinking is not the only way. Taking that tone...I dunno, but it immediately antagonized me, and I'm not that easy to antagonize."</p>

<p>Sorry. Really. I mean that. I apologize, because it was not intentional. </p>

<p>I would like to ask you this, though: Did I ALWAYS sound pretentious, or was it after surfette told me I was depriving my son?</p>

<p>I confess I got a little resentful and defensive when she said that. So it's no wonder that my tone would reflect that. </p>

<p>What do you think of her tone in saying that to me? Wasn't that a little...judgmental?</p>

<p>Hey, we're all human and none of us is perfect. I'm not angry at surfette (anymore) and I hope you can forgive me.</p>

<p>Please try to understand that it's hard sometimes for us vegetarians. We get harassed a LOT. You wouldn't believe how many times people at work have harassed me. And, get this: often I have gone to a restaurant with friends, and they all ordered steaks or whatever, and I did NOT SAY A WORD, and then when it was my turn to order, I asked what they had that was vegetarian, and was very lowkey about it, just like everyone else ordering whatever they wanted, and then the people all started ridiculing me, or saying things like 'Oh wow, now I can't eat this steak in front of you.' </p>

<p>I mean, hell, I never said a word about what THEY were eating, so why did they think they could ridicule what I was eating?</p>

<p>Even when I say NOTHING people are often intimidated and uncomfortable. </p>

<p>Could there be a little of that going on here? Could it be possible that you would think me pretentious NO MATTER WHAT I SAID?</p>

<p>Again, sorry, not my intention. But we vegetarians are what we are. I just wish meat-eaters would accept us the way they want us to accept them.</p>

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<p>"How can one be spiritual without having at least some religious beliefs that are established in ones mind (personal dogmas)? They need not come from firmly established religions such as Christianity or Hinduism, but firm beliefs in this context are still religious beliefs, and yes, dogmas, albeit personal ones. Without religious dogmas -- whether organized or personal -- spirituality has nothing to base itself on..."</p>

<p>Fides, we are in agreement. It's just a terminology thing. When I refer to 'religion' I am referring to an organization with a human leader who guides his flock. </p>

<p>I do not consider my personal spiritual foundation to be a religion or a dogma by that definition. But I see now that you are using the same words with a different definition.</p>

<p>Using your definition of a 'personal dogma' which I would modify as 'personal foundation of beliefs' then I do indeed have that and agree that one must have some sort of foundation from which to build and seek.</p>

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<p>"Again, I'm sorry. It's just that I've met a lot of vegetarians who try to coerce me into their lifestyle beyond limits that I think they should take, so I'm a little touchy."</p>

<p>Again, apology accepted! I guess we're both a little touchy!</p>

<p>PEACE!</p>

<p>And congratulations on cutting back! That's great! So you do know what I mean about Asians traditionally tending to eat small pieces of meat along with lots of rice and veggies, as opposed to the American practice of the meat being the centerpiece of the meal, right?</p>