vent-COA and lack of knowing Parents' assets

<p>For you old time folks, I'm sure you are used to it, but I'm not.</p>

<p>I don't understand why so many parents do not want to discuss finances with their kids.</p>

<p>I also don't understand why so many 4.0/+2100 SAT kids cannot understand why the EFC is important to know when building the application list.</p>

<p>Is it a sense of entitlement on the kids part? You know -- "I've worked so hard for the last 3 years that I deserve my dream." </p>

<p>Do parents just think $ falls out of the sky?</p>

<p>And finally, why are Guidance Counselors avoiding the financial discussion?
I don't expect the GC to demand to know an EFC, but I DO expect the GC to tell the kid that it is as important of an aspect as crafting the essay. </p>

<p><em>off soap box now</em></p>

<p>GC’s may not want to delve in finances, but that is a big deal for most families.</p>

<p>I remember hearing my son’s GC say to my son at our only advising conference “don’t worry about money, just apply to fit”. I had to stop her and remind her that I had three kids coming in the space of 5 years to college, and that money was going to be a consideration.</p>

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I think it’s often the kids who think money falls out of the sky. And many first-time parents have heard so much conflicting info about finaid (true and otherwise) that they choose to believe the most favorable version. Until reality becomes all too apparent, of course.</p>

<p>When we started this process 10 years ago with our oldest daughter, we just could not believe our EFC figure - we truly thought we’d filled the FAFSA out all wrong. Well, now we believe it - but needed a couple of years to come to terms with it. Perhaps the GC could make a difference in preparing parents and kids for the grim financial reality of paying for college (because many parents and students expect the GC to lead them through the entire application process), but it’s not really in the job description. It’s wrong of the GC, though, to make a comment like the one SL reports in post 2 (“don’t worry about money” ?!?). Many people founder on understanding the difference between what they believe they can afford and the concept of need, as reflected in the EFC. And then there are those many colleges that don’t even meet need.</p>

<p>I’d like to see GCs point more parents in the direction of this forum when their kids are hs freshmen.</p>

<p>I would be happy with the GC just posting info on school site or sending out with PSAT sign ups a simple blurb that Parents need to consider cost, go here to run EFC during junior year so that Jr. can start building a viable list over the summer.</p>

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<p>hmm … I think the trap a lot parents fall into is the old “when I was in college” trap … which in the case of paying for school just is not a realistic comparison. When I was in college 1977-1981 a student, on their own (meaning working and minimal student loans), could pay their own way through a state school and if they pushed it a little even the most expensive private schools. When I was a freshman at Cornell the 77-78 academic year cost $6700 … a student loan, a summer job, a winter break job, and 12 hours a week during school got someone real close. </p>

<p>And many parents think their kids can do the same now … commonly thinking the student can pay their own way through state school or pick up the difference between a state school and a private school. This ignores the reality of the prices of schools now and of the effect of the family’s EFC. When families do this they are severely limiting their child’s options for college and likely forcing them into debt at 22.</p>

<p>Relative costs for college is completely a different ballgame than when I was a student.</p>

<p>We are new to this (DS is class of 2012). I have estimated our EFC. It’s higher than I would like, but it is what it is. My question is about student loans. Do the Federal loans “count” toward the EFC or are they also subtracted from the COA? Using examples:</p>

<p>COA = $55,000
EFC = $35,000
Difference = $20K. So a school may give the child 20K in merit $. Or is it that the parents pay 35K and then the child takes on the additional debt of 10K to 12K in federal loans and then the school calculates it’s grants/merit $ so the school only grants them 10K. So, even if the parent can pay the EFC, the child still has to take out loans that can put them in debt 40 to 50K by the end of 4 years. </p>

<p>I was hoping that if our EFC was 35K and we only have 25K/year then the grants could be added to the 25K and our contribution would be 35K (but part of that is federal loans). Then the college might grant the full remaining 20K.</p>

<p>As a counselor I sent out newsletters that included detailed info on financial aid from the start of junior year.</p>

<p>The sad fact is that many families believe the myth that there is aid for all. And when families don’t feel rich such as many making well into 6 figures in places like CA and NYC, they are shocked to learn how much schools expect them to pay. Unfortunately, for many reality doesn’t happen until April.</p>

<p>Geogirl, the parents pay their EFC, then the kid takes loans and does work study.</p>

<p>“…so many 4.0/+2100 SAT kids…”
I can’t understand why so many good-stat hs seniors are on CC asking for names of colleges to apply to! In late Sept of their senior year, no less. Or, asking other hs (!) kids to"chance me" or critique their essays. Or, when’s the last day to take the SATs? I think the kids in question don’t “get it.” I think, when they’re all grown up, they’ll still irk us.</p>

<p>Entitlement? Forgive me for just calling it ignorance. They don’t google, read the colleges’ own web info, don’t check reviews. Or, maybe their pulling our legs.
-that’s my soapbox</p>

<p>Our GC held a parent meeting 1st sem junior year.</p>

<p>Some kids just don’t know what they want yet. My DS’s girlfriend is a senior. She has strong stats - a great GPA and a good SAT score in the 2000’s. She really has no idea where to go. She is looking at various schools and won’t really come up with a list until her first meeting with the GC next week. She’s a strong writer and will likely get everything done for 4 or 5 schools by the Jan 1 deadline. If a school has a Nov deadline, she probably can make that too. She doesn’t seem rushed. All her tests are done. I think applying to 10 or 12 schools creates alot of anxiety and is alot of extra work.</p>

<p>Thanks Redroses for the info. I’m thinking my kids are going to state schools. We are one of “those” NY families. It costs alot to live here!</p>

<p>EFC is supposed to come from the parents’ and student’s current income, savings and non-Federal loans. So, as others have noted, Stafford loans cannot be credited towards the family’s portion.</p>

<p>I don’t understand why parents don’t want to discuss finances with their students either. I say that as a parent of a current college student and as a former college student whose parents never shared ANY personal financial information with me when I was looking at colleges. Not dealing with the financial realities of college with your child is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Yet I see it all the time.</p>

<p>Redroses, I wish all school counselors were as proactive as you are regarding the financial side of the process but I’ve rarely seen anything similar in our public schools.</p>

<p>Sometimes money does fall out of the sky, in the form of scholarships and grants. While I was willing and able to pay for my d’s tuition, I was shocked (happily) in how much merit aid she was offered. I would never advise a student not to apply to a school based on what they charge in tuition. You never know. But I would advise them to apply to some financial safeties-state schools and schools they are over qualified for. Then the hard part comes when they get their acceptances. Yes, they may have to settle for their second or third choice because their parents can’t afford their dream school.</p>

<p>MIL has been calling all fired up after talking with one of her neighbors. They apparently got a college counselor, who has told them they will get TAP and Pell, and he implied to MIL that EVERYONE gets those. I did my best to tell her that we won’t qualify for TAP or Pell, but she thinks I have no idea what I’m talking about. I don’t know the neighbor’s finances, other than that he owns his own small business, and that their situation is utterly different from ours.</p>

<p>She apparently is of the group who think $ falls from the sky.</p>

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<p>High school GC’s can’t possibly be expected to know about all of the different financial aid policies of all the different colleges. </p>

<p>What they SHOULD do, is make families aware of what college costs these days…both publics and privates…instate and out. Give the ranges. AND they should make parents aware that there is need based aid and merit aid…and what the differences are…AND mostly, they should tell families to be aware of THEIR financial situations when crafting a college list.</p>

<p>BUT should the GC be advising about where a student should apply based on finances…my opinion…no…it’s a family decision and some of what it takes to make that decision is really none of the GC’s business.</p>

<p>I will add…our middle school and high school guidance offices had yearly presentations about college finances…where they discussed the FAFSA, Stafford loans, CSS Profile and general financial information. Not college or student specific, but something that would get parents thinking about this sooner than when their kids were filling out the applications.</p>

<p>There is a lot of info out there telling parents there is money available! Noone mentions the fine print – the size of your mortgage payment and credit card bills aren’t considered, there’s an expectation that you’ll be funding this four year adventure using 1/3 savings, 1/3 loans, 1/3 current income. And the loans the schools put in your package? That, my friends, is aid! </p>

<p>I was asked to do a presentation to some junior parents a couple of years ago about the college process. All I talked about was money and a) the necessity of running an EFC calculator NOW; b) that EFC is what the school/federal forms thinks you can pay, not what your family feels it can afford; and c) discussing with your kids about what you can realistically afford to contribute.</p>

<p>I think counselors are told not to discuss $$$ because they don’t want to be viewed as possibly steering kids towards certain schools for real or perceived economic reasons.</p>

<p>I put myself through a state flagship in the late 70s-early 80s. My parents wouldn’t disclose income so I went independent. Turns out my parents’ EFC was zero. DH put himself through an Ivy – was cheaper than Binghamton. Can’t do that any more!</p>

<p>Thanks to CC I learned so much about colleges so we are well informed and prepared. We had the financial talk many times starting junior year. My son left for college last week and his college will be all paid for between scholarships and us.</p>

<p>Our public high school GCs don’t have the resource or time to do too much for the students. Parents/students are mostly on their own.</p>

<p>My friend lives in a high cost area in CA, has a hs senior now going through the college process. A while ago we were talking and she said something like they qualify for financial aid and everyone goes to colleges like Stanford gets aid.</p>

<p>She got unhappy with me when I told her that with her 6 figure family income, she most likely would not get much aid if any at all and not everyone gets aid no matter what college they go to.</p>

<p>One thing that I have found that a number of parents and students do not consider is the amount of aid (financial or merit) which they may be able to get from a given school. Many who have high EFCs tend to just look at the COA and assume that that is how much they will have to pay. It may be, but it may not. If the kid is in the high end of the potential college class, he/she may get a good merit scholarship. OTOH, many parents who have $0 EFC, assume that means that the kid goes to college for free.</p>

<p>My advice is: If you are high EFC, look at the colleges that give good merit scholarships and if you are low EFC, find out how much the college will cover of the COA (and do assume - unless stated clearly otherwise - that financial aid will include loans).</p>

<p>Just want to mention that our FAFSA Forecaster EFC turned to be higher than when I did the fully detailed FAFSA, later. Like many, I did tons of research- no one source gives clear info about all the particulars I needed answered. It’s mindboggling, even for a commited parent. We steered D1 toward colleges we thought (based on research) might give good need-based aid. In the end, packages from 3 of her top 4 (one rejected her) came in nearly equal. At that point, she knew which was her #1. Was it worth all the research I did? Absolutely. She loves her college and it only entered our radar in the first place when I learned it’s FA strength. Btw, our Forecaster EFC was 30% higher than the final one. This may be unique. What we pay, including her Stafford, is actually a better deal than our state U, which may also be unique.</p>

<p>lookingforward said:</p>

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<p>Actually, I don’t think that it all that unique, which is one of the reasons that I suggest that kids may do better looking outside of their state. I agree that the calculators are not precise, but FAFSA is a breeze compared to CSS/Profile.</p>

<p>If you think you may be eligible for some special consideration under PROFILE (i.e., extremely high medical expenses, supporting sick/elderly family members) you may get a better FA deal. FAFSA is pretty hard-and-fast on what they include in their calcs.</p>

<p>It is hard to pin down a school on actual FA numbers before your child has an acceptance in hand, but if you have unusual circumstances, document them in the initial app and then be prepared to offer evidence later if necessary. It is a lot easier for FA folks to at least <em>know</em> there are special circumstances by the Jan.-Feb. FA deadline (when there is still $4 in the budget) than to come pleading to them in mid-April for mercy. EVERYONE will be asking for for money then.</p>