<p>Good point Data10, best to figure out the unweighted GPA to get a true sense of standardized test score percentages and GPA. I always appreciated UofM looking at first unweighted GPA and then rigor and test scores. I think that catches alot of out of state kids by surprise. I also agree, as you point out, that some unis look at majors differently. Again using Michigan as an example, a high unweighted GPA, good rigor in math and science plus high math on the ACT means more to admissions who will tend to ignore low reading ACT scores. </p>
<p>BarnardGirl got into Barnard, American University, DePaul (with a very large scholarship) and the University of Michigan (as an in-state student but they had her classified as a non-resident so I don’t know) with a 1925 and a 3.97 UW GPA. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>However, the OP wrote that she has never gotten less than an A- in any class. This means a 4.0 unweighted GPA if +/- is not counted, and a minimum of whatever an A- is counted as (3+2/3 or 3.7 usually) if +/- is counted (probably higher unless all of her grades are A-, rather than A or A+).</p>
<p>OP : I haven’t kept up with this entire thread but, two bits of advice. </p>
<p>!. First, people who post on CC are coming from all over the country (and the globe!) and college admissions really are local. If your daughter is coming from a highly competitive NYC-area public school then the competition will be especially tough for the kinds of schools most popular among these kids–the Ivies and top east coast LACs. If she is willing to travel a little farther afield, she might have more success.
2. The first step when colleges evaluate students is to compare them with similar students from the same high school, particularly if it is a well-known, highly regarded school. So, if you have a helpful GC, ask him or her which colleges might focus more on GPA rather than SATs when assessing kids from her high school. If your school uses Naviance you may be able to get a rough sense of this. For example, at my child’s hs, the “accepted average” statistics are very similar for kids who got into Boston College and Wesleyan. However, when you look at the scattergrams for these schools you see that Wesleyan is going less by SAT scores than is Boston College. The BC scattergram is clearly delineated–they rarely admit kids who don’t score above 2100 even if their GPA is high. But Wesleyan seems to take a more holistic approach. I have no idea if this is generally true for these two schools–or just reflects their approach to my child’s high school. Hope that helps!</p>
<p>My son scored a 1680 on the SAT, and 25 on the ACT. He also has a 4.582 GPA (3.951 UW), and is ranked #2 in his class. He was accepted at many test optional schools and others that use a holistic review (such as UC Berkeley and UCLA), and is excited to be attending Bowdoin College this fall. It was hard for him to choose because he felt he could be successful at any one of the schools that accepted him.</p>
<p>There are happy students at nearly every college in this country…she will likely bloom wherever she is planted! </p>
<p>@fondmemories that is a very interesting point-coming from a school where it is big news if a kid scores 2000 since I guess it is not common I can tell you we have plenty of kids getting into BC along with other the higher ranked schools-so I do think it is harder coming from these high achieving high scoring schools. Who knows></p>
<p>@luckymom367 that is a story that should be pinned on CC-thank you for sharing that with us!</p>
<p>The best advice I have seen on here is guiding our children in building their college list-in your situation that is going to be harder than in mine for instance since we do not live in as competitive environment-it’s more competitive than many but not to your level-something that I do not know if it is easy to explain unless you know people that live in it.</p>
<p>@luckymom367. It might be helpful if you gave a little more background on your son, because if these schools truly take a holistic approach, then it might help OP to know if he got in entirely on his class standing or did additional factors buttress his application? Such as: where do you live? Is he first gen, a URM, an athlete, an artist who submitted samples or have an EC with an unusual or high level of achievement? </p>
<p>I agree. Luckymom’s kid either had something in his application that most students don’t have…or he was very lucky to get into UCLA and Cal.</p>
<p>Just make sure she applies to a mix. My son has had straight A’s at one of the top high schools in our state. His SATs didn’t really match up to his grades, but his ACT scores did. He was accepted at Chicago and GW with sizable scholarships. It’s hard to tell what the schools feel is most important nowadays!</p>
<p>The kid was number two in his class that seems pretty good to me-maybe there is more but maybe there isn’t? </p>
<p>While it is certainly helpful to remind the OP that a non-hooked student CAN be accepted at elite schools with significantly lower than average (for that school) SAT scores, it is also important not to treat these exceptions as the rule. IMO, based on the information we’ve been given, the OP is largely correct in her assumption that the score is going to keep D out of a lot of schools she could otherwise be looking at.</p>
<p>I don’t think OP needs to adjust her thinking; I think the D does. If she either doesn’t take or doesn’t do significantly better on the ACT, she’s going to have to make a decision about priorities. There isn’t any reason this student should have no choice but her state school - not that there would be anything tragic about winding up there, either. But if she decides that she NEEDS to be in the NE and NEEDS a school of a certain size or couldn’t possibly be happy at a women’s college, then that does cut out a lot of the more realistic options, and even those might be less big-name than the ones she was originally pinning her hopes on. </p>
<p>These uber competitive schools accept 10% or so of applicants. In the 90% who are not accepted! there are many well qualified candidates. Those schools are NOT a sure thing for anyone. I say…let her apply to a few. Then, as said before…have her choose several slam dunk schools that she would be happy to attend, and several maybe schools. A varied, and well rounded application list is a must. But it’s a must for every student.</p>
<p>Since you don’t know how schools will view her mixed record, I would try to find several schools where she can apply early. Hopefully that will give you both some peace of mind with some acceptances, and if not, then you may need to adjust list and expectations for the regular decision round.</p>
<p>How about this? Apply to some top schools knowing it is a lottery and her SAT score might put her behind the eight ball. In parallel find some lower tier schools which have great depts./professors in her intended major. Do this with goggle or college board or any other means you want. Find the schools with the great profs, go visit and sit in on one of his/her classes. Get her excited about the dept rather than the school. </p>
<p>To go back to the original questions: 1. Why? This happens to A LOT of students because GPA is more a function of hard work/self discipline/good study habits and school/teacher policies; test taking skills/aptitude are something else. S 2. What will colleges think? Most will think “Here is yet another well-above-average, hard-working student” and/or “grade inflation.” (You say there isn’t grade inflation, but colleges may still perceive this with a lower score/top GPA.) 3. Should she make her list based on GPA or test scores? Test scores. 4. Will highly competitive colleges automatically screen her out based on SAT scores? Yes, they will. There are thousands of applicants who have perfect GPA/top rank AND perfect/near perfect scores, AND special ECs/awards. And most of those applicants are getting rejected. So, as you said, schools that consider scores have no need to consider students with scores under a certain threshold. Unless she has something else that is really, really special (and you said she does not) don’t waste application fees on tip-top schools. 5. Many honors programs have strict score cutoffs. If you are unsure, ask the school. Don’t assume that a great GPA can make up for middling scores. 4.0+ students are not uncommon. That’s why standardized tests exist.
As many have already suggested, prep hard, and try the ACT. Find some safety schools that she likes. She shouldn’t be that stressed since the vast majority of colleges will be happy to admit her. I think that finding some “overlooked gem” schools that aren’t on the radar of all her classmates will make her feel better–it is the competition with her GPA peers that is stressing her out. </p>
<p>I disagree. If she goes to a competitive school on par with Scarsdale and is highly ranked, admissions officers will know she is qualified because they will know her school. I have a friend who went to a top prep school who had excellent grades but a 30 on the ACT. She got into an Ivy ED. If your daughter has a top choice like Penn, Brown, or Columbia who all have ED, I suggest she look into it.</p>
<p>The OPs D is close to the equivalent of a 30 maybe a 29…although the OP reports superscored and the ACT is generally not superscored by colleges. The OPs D is well qualified for some very nice colleges…maybe not the tippy, tippy top but the OP knows this…it’s just the D that isn’t “getting it.”</p>
<p>This family has not indicated whether finances are a significant consideration. My advice will be different if they say they have financial constraints.</p>
<p>Aaargh.
The SAT does not test “aptitude” – even the designers of the SAT admitted that years ago when they changed the name. It does test “SAT test taking skills” (but not, say, AP testing skills or college exam testing skills — I’d note that my daughter with the similar scores t o OP had very good AP scores, including in subjects where she had not taken the underlying AP course and did only a minimal amount of self-study). Yes, hard work, self discipline,and good study habits play a big part in GPA – even more so in college than in high school. Colleges know that. </p>
<p>
No, they won’t think that. The do NOT look at SATs the way you think they do. They will think, “hmm, good GPA, unremarkable SATs” and move on to looking at the school profile, the LORs, the essay, and the overall sense of the student they get from the EC’s. They might calculate some sort of academic index based on a formula that accounts for GPA along with SAT – that will be number that may come out higher for the strong GPA/middling SAT candidates than for the strong SAT/middling GPA candidates. Class rank, if it is given, is very important. </p>
<p>CC’ers seem to assume that all strong students who have less-than-perfect SAT scores are grade-grubbing, teacher-pleasing plodders who manage to work beyond their potential. College admission officers don’t look at that way.</p>
<p>That being said – the elite colleges are lottery schools for everyone, and if the student attends a well known high school with a lot of applicants to the elites – she is going to be competing head to head with her other classmates. LOR’s probably take on a whole new level of significance in that setting. </p>
<p>The colleges are also asking, for every applicant: what’s special about this kid? what’s remarkable? what’s different than all the others? what does this kid bring to our campus that others won’t? </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is bunk. Test scores should help inform how schools are classified (reach, match, safety). But no school should be excluded unless the test scores are well below range. Even the very top schools (Ivies) routinely accept roughly 20% of students with test scores in the 600 range for any give subscore.</p>
<p>
No, not with those scores. They presumably do have a screening level that eliminates students with lower scores, but it is not at the 93% mark. Probably more like 1800-1850.</p>
<p>Again, most probably do use an academic index that factors GPA & SAT together, so a student with a 3.8 GPA is going to need to have higher scores than the student with the 4.0 GPA - and a student with a 3.5 GPA might not stand a chance no matter how high the scores (unless class rank or other factors show that student is coming from a school with particularly tough grading standards)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Because the colleges aren’t looking for “perfect.” They are looking for diversity – not just geographic diversity or ethnic diversity, but diversity of interests and talents, and intellectual diversity. They love lopsided candidates, probably not because they want lopsided students, but more likely because it is easier for them to quickly tag and categorize that student when they have to make a decision among thousand of apps. They’ve got only a few minutes to read through an app and make a fairly quick initial judgment – so if nothing stands out it’s going to be a pass.</p>
<p>A few steps down the selectivity ladder, a near-perfect SAT score might stand out. Not so at the top.</p>
<p>They do want to keep their overall test numbers about the same – but that’s a numbers game that can be looked at cumulatively rather than individually. And because of the way scores are reported on the common data set it is going to be looked at broken down into sub tests as well. A student with a score breakdown of 660 on each test category might be less attractive than a student whose scores has 620 / 620, 740. Same scores overall, but the student who is bringing that 740 to the table is helping to keep the scores high in one area. The admission staff will have statistical data in front of them, especially after the ED/SCEA round, which will let them know where their overall numbers stand. So if they are told on Monday morning that the CR scores of incoming applicants are running a little low, then that week they might favor applicants with higher CR scores – but they are going to have a whole array of other priorities as well. </p>
<p>Calmom…if that high score is in the writing area, will that really be a huge help? The soon to be revised again SAT is eliminating that section. And many schools didn’t really use it for admissions. </p>
<p>I would think a CR or math that exceeds 700 would be a more valuable asset in the application process.</p>
<p>But back to the OP’s daughter. She has a great GPA. She has very good SAT scores. I think I’ve said this…ad nauseum…she will be a very welcome addition to any number of colleges in this country.</p>