Very high GPA -- Middling SATs

Parents Forum
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<p>Agree on Vanderbilt and also add Rice and Emory.</p>

<p>If she’s dead set against a woman’s college, your best bet is to do the Columbia tour and then spend half an hour wandering around across the street on the Barnard side of the house. I know women at Barnard whose entire social life and EC life revolves around Columbia.</p>

<p>I wasn’t pushing Mt Holyoke just because of the holistic admissions which would absolutely showcase your D’s talents to the max… but also because if she’s looking for environment which doesn’t have the slacker kid vibe (and I do agree with her- there are some colleges which attract smart and lazy kids which is not her!), that’s an example of a college which doesn’t do that.</p>

<p>What is it about Lehigh and Colgate that appeal to her? Start there- you may find a nugget which will help you expand her list. Colgate yes and Brandeis no? </p>

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<p>@cptofthehouse, the OP made a direct comparison between her daughter’s SAT scores and those of other students at the school with comparable GPA’s. Everyone is assuming this is valid and it probably is but I was just pointing out the possibility that this comparison might be more complicated than that. If the kids ranked #1-#17 are taking AP chem and AP stats in their spare time and if the OP’s child is taking study halls, then I wouldn’t be surprised if the SAT scores come out different. Given the large number of kids taking more APs than the OP’s child, this is a real possibility. I have no idea if this is the case, but it occurred to me that it is a possible explanation for the apparent GPA-SAT discrepancy.</p>

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<p>OP- does your HS have experience with kids going to college in Canada? (thinking McGill and U T specifically).</p>

<p>I hesitate to mention it… but your GC probably mentioned the “back door” strategy, if your D is truly not interested in any of the colleges which would be logical/probable admits for her. I know kids who’ve applied to and been accepted to U Penn’s school of Nursing, for example, who would not have been candidates for Arts and Sciences. That’s a back door. Although god help your D if she doesn’t want to be a nurse, and can’t keep her grades high enough Freshman year (although likely not her problem…) to then transfer to Arts and Sciences. Same at NYU with Steinhardt (education), Cornell with Hotel or one of the land grant schools, etc. I don’t recommend it-- your D sounds like such a great student that I think the better strategy is for her to end up in a college where she’s studying what she wants to study (which might not be hotel management) but if your HS is the one I think it is, I know there are kids who have done the back door with either the blessing or the tacit approval of the guidance department.</p>

<p>But for sure- and for kicks- download the list of test optional schools and over the summer, casually try to help your D find one thing to love about each college on the list.</p>

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<p>I have no idea what schools do re naviance and EDII but I’m sure someone else will. </p>

<p>“You get the idea. She is not interested in small LACs, except maybe Lehigh or Colgate. I know that the collective wisdom here is that she HAS to get interested in them. It’s just not what she wants. Any others to recommend that are similar to the above?” </p>

<p>Has your D visited any schools yet? When my S started thinking about college he had very definite ideas about where he wanted to go (big city, urban, not Maine, Ohio, PA or anything in the South.) Then he saw NYU and Fordham and big city/urban were all crossed off the list.) After that he started looking predominantly at LAC (though he toured both Syracuse and Rochester, but they too got crossed off immediately.) </p>

<p>He never did look at anything in Ohio - though my niece begged him to look at her alma mater, Kenyon and other niece did the same for her’s (Colorado College.) He ended up in Maine, where he swore he would never go to school, at the college which became his first choice after visiting. </p>

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<p>Strongly second this as Barnard offers the best of both the smaller LAC environment and the larger research university environment at Columbia right across the street. One could tailor their experience so they could have as much or as little of the larger Columbia U experience as desired. </p>

<p>There’s also a fair amount of cross-socialization between Barnard and various other divisions within Columbia for ECs and hanging out. </p>

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<p>Not the hotel school as they tend to be one of the more selective divisions of Cornell…sometimes much more so than A & S. </p>

<p>Students who wanted to backdoor their way into Cornell commonly went for the Ag school. </p>

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<p>Your DD is not likely to be the first (or the last) in her high school to have this situation. Look at some Naviance pages for schools that such kids gained acceptance. The straight up Naviance data is not going to tell you the special kids who are in that spot, so do talk to the GC there. An advantage of going to such a school is that the GCs are usually pretty well in the loop about how things work for select college acceptances, and can tell you right out about unhooked kids with your DD"s profile and where they were accepted to colleges. </p>

<p>The reality is that there will be more kids with similar profile to your DD where it doesn’t so much matter who is accepted from that stack. So you go for the higher test scores from those groupings. Without an overriding reason, why not/ It’s pretty clear that they are an important part of the consideration for admissions. At many of the top schools, the interview, interest , a lot of things don’t count for much. If the kid can stand out somehow from the batch where the app has landed, that can increase chances of acceptance. The reality is that even with SAT scores a lot higher, it is not a shoo in for acceptance.</p>

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I expect you don’t see many low test scoring posters with high GPAs in the decision thread, and among the few that post, you see little difference in acceptance rate between low and high test scoring posters with a high GPA. The SAT scores for accepted and rejected applicants with the equivalent of at least a 3.8 UW GPA for the class of 2018 are below: Note that the median test scores are lower for the accepted group than the rejected group, suggesting a slight negative correlation with test scores. That is, as test scores go up, acceptance rate among high GPA forum posters decreases slightly. </p>

<p>ED Round
Accepted – 1760 (engineering, no listed hooks), 1930, 1950, 2010, 2070, 2120, 2120, 2120, 2130, 2140, 2150, 2180, 2190, 2200, 2210, 2230, 2240, 2260, 2260, 2270, 2280, 2280, 2300, 2310, 2310, 2320, 2320, 2390</p>

<p>Deferred – 2080, 2090, 2190, 2370
Rejected – 2170, 2230, 2260, 2320, 2340 </p>

<p>RD Round
Accepted – 1800, 1970, 2110, 2120, 2150, 2180, 2210, 2210, 2230, 2230, 2250, 2280, 2280, 2330, 2390</p>

<p>Waitlisted – 2150, 2320
Rejected – 2180, 2180, 2200, 2220, 2250, 2330, 2400 (2400 + 3.99 UW + many APs)</p>

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<p>For those who are suggesting Vanderbilt, Rice, Emory… is there something that you know about the daughter that the rest of us aren’t privy to - other than an assumed ability to pay full tuition? Does she have great extracurriculars - TASP - internships with science labs - SGA leadership…what is it about her that highly selective colleges would pick her rather than one of the other hundreds of applicants that have high SAT scores AND high GPA and come from equally well respected high schools? I don’t think it does anyone any favors by suggesting lottery schools to the OP - I think her daughter and their community have that covered.</p>

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<p>Well, guess what…it’s true. Happened to me this year, and it will CONTINUE to happen to many, many qualified students because there are thousands more applicants than seats. </p>

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<p>Brantly, I think you’re right that your D can look at schools more competitive than the ones you mentioned, some of which I would consider safeties for her. Your second list of schools to target sounds reasonable to me. </p>

<p>What you should be sure to do is apply rolling admission at the beginning of the cylce to some fairly sure bets so that your D will, hopefully, have an acceptance going in to the RD round. In addition, I would visit some of the other schools you’re talking about to see if your D might be interested in applying ED anywhere - i.e, if she visited Barnard and loved it, that would be a great ED option. If she isn’t in love enough to commit, you can take a look at schools with non-binding EA, which would allow you to gain some benefit from the early boost without committing you to anything or taking a potential higher reach off the table.</p>

<p>As for other schools, what about Case Western, which I think also has EA? </p>

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<p>Brantly, i just went through the college process w my second child who goes to a school in a westchester suburb. He applied to 4 of the schools on your list and was accepted to all (UM, USC, Tulane and Rochester). He had a GPA that was one point lower than our neighbor’s child (both overall A- students in comparable rigor) but much higher SATs (2260 w an 800 cr; 2330–3 SAT2s). (Our neighbor’s kid also has a tough time w testing, and he tried both the SAT & ACT and was tutored by the primier tutoring company in NY. But because his GPA was a point higher, he was NHS and my son wasn’t, so he had that going for him.) My S2 was initially deferred from Michigan where he has double grad school legacy and then got in 5 weeks later. He got into Tulane and USC w huge scholarships. Our neighbor’s son applied to Colgate ED and was rejected. He applied early to Tulane and didn’t get in. He was rejected by Michigan. He had the best luck at schools that don’t require standardized test scores and will attend one next fall. </p>

<p>I remember reading this year that the usnwr is changing their methodology and will not count class rank as much for this class year going forward bc most schools in the country don’t rank. They will increase the weight of the scores in their ranking, & I’m wondering if that affected my son’s admissions. After seeing the results of these two kids whose grades were comparable, it’s clear that my son had an easier time w admissions bc of his scores (& he had the opposite issue of your daughter: scores that outperformed his GPA). I’m sure the other kid had a well written application bc they used a good private college counselor. He also had very good ECs. I think their difference in scores was the main discrepancy. </p>

<p>There are so many excellent colleges on the fair test list that your daughter should consider if her scores don’t increase (& even if they do). Bowdoin, holy cross, bates, & so many more, all of which provide an excellent education. Barnard (not on that list but as someone pointed out above, still a strong possibility for your D) is amazing…it’s the best of both worlds…the advising of a LAC with the course depth and breath of a leading university. She could take many of her classes at Columbia. If it accepted men, it would have been perfect for my son. </p>

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<p>@renaissancem - US News already made the change you are discussing. It was reflected in the rankings that came out last Fall:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2013/09/03/preview-methodology-changes-for-2014-best-colleges-rankings”>http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2013/09/03/preview-methodology-changes-for-2014-best-colleges-rankings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>The tier of standardized test scores (not marginal differences ) have the most weight because it is easier to compare nationally. Does GPA matter? Of course, but again, it is more relative to peers in his/her class. There are many more cases of top students with low test scores versus underachieving students with high test scores. Clearly, having a top GPA doesn’t necessarily lead to high standardized test scores since they are two very different metrics. </p>

<p>I think generally, the overall level of importance for elite schools, in order, is test score, GPA/ranking, and ECs. The test scores can keep doors open and allow further comparisons on the other categories. The students who are elite in GPA and SAT/ACT then get compared on their more qualitative traits.</p>

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<p>@johnny H, I think you’re right. My S’s scores no doubt pulled him through at some of the schools on his list, such as WUSTL, Tufts, USC & UCLA, where his grades according to our naviance made his admissions an outlier (from our HS, kids getting into these schools have a 94UW average). I think his scores opened the door so that his ECs and essays could further tip him in. </p>

<p>Btw, from what I’ve read here about Michigan, as an OOS, you really need top scores for admission. It’s gotten very competitive to get in. There were many kids on the EA thread w outstanding grades and scores who were deferred or rejected. My S’s GC told him that even with his scores, it was going to be a tough admit. Over 50 kids from his high school applied early and only a few were initially accepted. A handful more were accepted afterward. Just 3 years ago, with my older S, college admissions was a different landscape.</p>

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<p>If they are great schools, they are great schools. For everyone. I don’t mean to sound judgmental and I’m guessing that you haven’t spent a lot of time around CC so you haven’t had a chance to see how many talented kids there are out there. I recommend you read the posts that crop up every March and April from disappointed parents of students with high scores, high GPA, high rankings, and impressive extracurricular activities. The reality is that there are many kids, even those coming from wonderful, highly ranked high schools, who have all the requisite boxes checked who aren’t admitted to the tippy top schools. You do yourself and your daughter a favor if you can let go of some of the assumptions and look widely at all schools that match her interests without letting the school rankings get in the way. </p>

<p>The four years of hard work matters. Of course it does. Wherever she goes in the end, she’ll bring her hard work, her knowledge, her abilities, and she’ll excel. She’ll also meet others who are equally bright and equally driven no matter where she ends up. The thing to remember is that hard work is not a ticket to admission at any particular school and admission is not a “right” for anyone. </p>

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<p>@johnny H, I think you’re right. My S’s scores no doubt pulled him through at some of the schools on his list, such as WUSTL, Tufts, USC & UCLA, where his grades according to our naviance made his admissions an outlier (from our HS, kids getting into these schools have a 94UW average. His GPA was a few points lower thanks to Bs in math). I think his scores opened the door so that his ECs and essays could further tip him in. </p>

<p>Btw, from what I’ve read here about Michigan, as an OOS, you really need top scores for admission. It’s gotten very competitive to get in. There were many kids on the EA thread w outstanding grades and scores who were deferred ( & later accepted) or rejected. My S’s GC told him that even with his scores, it was going to be a tough admit. Over 50 kids from his high school applied early and only a few were initially accepted. A handful more were accepted afterward. Just 3 years ago, with my older S, college admissions was a different landscape. </p>

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<p>Sorry about the repost…I added a phrase and somehow it posted twice, once w the phrase and once without. Weird.</p>

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<p>3girls-- while I agree with you (and half the schools the OP mentioned are schools I posted as being potential fits for her D) I think there is some finesse required when dealing with a teenager.</p>

<p>Having the D read an article about the Buerger collection of ancient and Byzantine coins at Lawrence University (if she’s interested in Classics) is a much more potent message than telling her to suck it up if she can’t get into U Chicago or Berkeley or Michigan or Harvard, the typical “suspects” in the strong Classics department list. Doing some homework about internship opportunities at American is likely to be a more compelling selling point for a kid interested in government/political science, than just conceding, “well if you can’t take Grand Strategies at Yale there’s no point in majoring in political science”.</p>

<p>There are some disciplines that attract a more intellectual breed of kid (sorry if that sounds elitist) than others at virtually every college. And those disciplines can be a huge selling point, even for a skeptical kid. At some colleges, econ attracts a hard core, brainy kind of kid. At others, it’s for kids who aren’t smart enough to make it as a history major. Is half the hockey team majoring in sociology or urban planning? Not a knock on the hockey players- but that suggests that those majors will be less time intensive other departments. And part of what the OP’s D is trying to do is to find her “peeps”.</p>

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<p>I asked because you will need a copy of the profile. No matter what you think you know about your school. As a person who has worked at and attended one of those “there is not an admissions officer on the east coast or in any top school who is not very familiar with this HS”, there is always something to be learned when you look at the nitty gritty behind the numbers.</p>

<p>I think one of the challenges in getting behind the numbers at Cornell is that they run a very robust EOP program (through the state-contract colleges; College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, College of Human Ecology, and the School of Industrial and Labor Relations, and HEOP program for College of Art, Architecture, and Planning; College of Arts and Sciences, and the School of Hotel Administration.</p>

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<p>Not to take anything from your kid, but that could be part of the challenge; she has very high grades because she works very hard to achieve them. Even at the most rigorous high schools, part of the grade is based on classwork, class participation (which also covers attendance), homework, quizzes, opportunities for extra credit, etc which can raise a grade, vs. the kid who does not have to burn the midnight old and get comparable grades or being student who are graded like college students simply on the basis of exams/midterm/ a paper and final.</p>

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<p>Well sure Blossom. That’s good advice. I’m reacting to the mom’s post that she can’t understand how her daughter, who has worked so hard in high school, should be expected to mix with the top 40% of the class when she’s at the top 5% mark. </p>