<p>Alumother : I'm a robot programmed in an evil manner it seems. I don't know why I always end up on the wrong side of everyone else.</p>
<p>
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Why can’t the first generation students be given first chances at the public schools? Why Ivies?
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Partly because the Ivies (rightfully) feel that all students they accept benefit from being in diverse environment with peers from very different backgrounds.</p>
<p>I hope that your D, once she goes to school with some of those kids, will learn to appreciate them more than you do.</p>
<p>The tuition will still keep the lowest SES kids out. I've spent about half my adult life living in a very low SES community. It is the greatest learning experience I will ever have. If you keep those kids out, I wholeheartedly believe it also hurts the education of those attending.</p>
<p>I second nngmm's hope for your D.</p>
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I don't know if such a study have been done or not but my logic says it should show that a person who have not gone thru a rigorous curriculumn may not thrive at Harvard.
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This statement can be proved wrong by a single example of a student that succeeded, which had been done already.</p>
<p>2blue : Ypu might be right but I think these children might not show their full potential at Ivies.
If you have really worked in such environment do you seriously think they will thrive more at Harvard than at state schools?
If you say so I can't fight with you because I've not worked with such children here.</p>
<p>Looks like we're no longer discussing which schools are best for a prospective engineer who wants to give back to society by inventing some new machine that will help cure whatever... We're now just discussing the fairness of keeping out kids who (or rather whose parents) can pay their way into an Ivy League school (it does not seem to matter which, from what I can gather of the OP's posts.</p>
<p>Pssst... I have a suggestion: donate mucho dollars, and you'll get in. By mucho, I mean in the range of $5million and up. $1million won't guarantee a spot. But then, keep in mind that 25% of Harvard students are on full ride, meaning that their families make $60k or less, that they have probably attended mediocre public schools (horror, they've not learned the proper ethics). Are you sure you want your D to rub shoulders with them?</p>
<p>nngmm: You don't base conclusions on 1 case; it is the average that should be looked at. There are outliers in any Statistical studies.</p>
<p>marite
: Yes, it seems the point of thread is lost. But my D works with inner city school children every friday for an hour; so she won't have problem dealing with anyone. </p>
<p>The point was not that and I don't know why it ended up like this.</p>
<p>I think we can close the thread.</p>
<p>If you are saying "no student with that bkgd can succeed at Ivy", showing just one that managed to succeeded proves you wrong. That's pretty basic logic.</p>
<p>Interesting theread. I don't agree w/ much of what POIH says, but admire him hanging in there despite all the comments (and getting his a$$ chewed). I am a new parent to CC, and am now scared of asking questions.</p>
<p>Yes, I do think they will thrive more at Harvard than a state school, because with more resources Harvard is in a position to grant more support. One simple example, Harvard even has a fund to help poor kids buy winter clothing. If a student needs emergency medical care, there's a fund to help pay for it for poor kids. There's a fund to help pay for tutors. Those are the kind of support services that can keep a kid from having to drop out. I don't know of any studies, but suspect the dropout rate would be much, much lower for the kid at Harvard than a similar kid at a state school unable to provide such resources.</p>
<p>Re post 171: Don't be. We actually like to answer questions that are actually about education.</p>
<p>A couple of things I would like to address:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Someone mentioned that a BIG part of getting into ivy league schools is who you know etc - this is nonsense.</p></li>
<li><p>That certain types of students will be better off at a state school rather than Harvard is also nonsense - Harvard has the last time I checked one of the highest graduation rates of any school and this includes students from all backgrounds.</p></li>
<li><p>I think that perhaps POIH is being misunderstood?? Perhaps there is a significant language barrier issue in play here.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I went to Harvard and knew hundreds of kids who'd gone to mediocre public schools as well as plenty that had gone to good ones, and ones who'd gone to private schools (both good and bad). I knew kids from all types of schools that struggled at first, and kids from all types who didn't. They all, every single last one of them, graduated, and some of those public school kids did very, very well and continue to do very well. Many are more successful than me by most measures despite my very good private school high school education.</p>
<p>Thanks, Marite for the assurance.
POIH, I heard from a friend whose s has been thru this process, that top private high schools "steer" their students to take certain types of AP's to improve their (that is the schools) statistics. The same school CC may be forcing/setting up much lowered expectations and forcing her to pick only 4 reaches. This will allow more of their students to spread out rather than one students hog all admission/selections. This in turn improves high school stats, (is fair to other students), but of course, as a parent, you want to maximize only your s/d's chances by applying every reach. Do you think that is what is going on your D's school. Will she be allowed to apply (I mean in terms of recommendations from CC) if she is really qualified for all the reaches that you considered safeties before.</p>
<p>POIH, I can tell that you feel passionately about this subject, but I'm not exactly sure what your concern is. Doesn't the fact that the private uni's are private mean that they can admit anyone they want based on any criteria they establish (assuming no evidence of discrimination due to race, etc.)? And can't they choose how they will use their sources of income (tuition, endowments, donations, etc)? Some privates provide merit aid, some need-based aid, and some like Cooper Union and Olin provide a scholarship for every student, regardless of need. Isn't that their perogative as private schools? If you don't like the policy of the specific school then you are free to "vote with your feet" and send your daughter to a school whose financial aid policies more closely match your values.</p>
<p>ClassicRockerDad, I think that my son would like to be you except without the financial struggles. Right now he is supposed to be doing his hw, but instead I hear the sylvan strains of some Joe Satriani (or Joe Bonamaso?) tune being played on his new (used) Gibson Les Paul. And he's upstairs at the other end of the house. Why isn't he deaf?</p>
<p>POIH, if your figures are correct and 65% of students at, say, Harvard, are from public schools, and 95% of them are from top performing public high schools, then just 3% of Harvard's students are from the background that may possibly make them unable to thrive at Harvard, or just about 50 students in any admitted class. </p>
<p>Even if we assume that every single one of them has sneaked some kind of admissions advantage because they are first generation or URMs, which is not the case, it seems a terribly small number to be so very concerned about - the odds of some unworthy, hopeless, poor person stealing your D's rightful place and then wasting it are, according to your figures, incredibly low.</p>
<p>Even if we accept that your figures are incorrect, which I think they are, the very, very few people who fail to thrive at Harvard and other top schools, do so for all kinds of reasons, most of which are not related in any way to a lack of rigor in high school. In my experience, those who do struggle for whatever reason would likely have struggled anywhere. The supportive environment given to every student at top schools actually makes it less likely that those who do struggle, as graduate rates show, will fail out completely.</p>
<p>OP: Your daughter sounds great and will get a great education wherever she ends up. All of her hard work has already paid off. The prize is the education itself not the "admission" or the "degree" and you've given her wonderful opportunities. We are fortunate in the United States that there are so many great universities. I'm sure she will get a first rate education. </p>
<p>Those first generation kids don't have parents like you who know how to get the guidance and challenges that their kids need. Some of these kids work very hard but aren't challenged to their capacity because they have no peers available. Yet somehow they manage to achieve very highly anyway, maybe not quite as high as your D, but very high nonetheless given their circumstances. That they score this high despite their lack of opportunities is quite remarkable. The top schools believe that given the right challenges, these kids would perform as well as anyone, and it turns out that they are correct for the most part. Think about it, why would top universities continue to admit kids who will fail. What's the upside for them?</p>
<p>I don't think that it's unfair at all that private universities evaluate kids in the context of their circumstances and financially subsidize those who need subsidy.</p>
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Why isn't he deaf?
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</p>
<p>MarinMom: My kids think that I play the music on the car radio too loud. I've probably suffered some hearing loss from attending rock concerts. They make some pretty good earplugs he can buy at any guitar store. That's why we all used to have long hair - to hide the earplugs!</p>