<p>POIH, I did not read all the posts here but I would give you my $0.02. </p>
<p>For an excellent student, applying to a large number of reach and match is really a wise chioce. If you could afford the fees and visits. </p>
<p>This is what I have learnt, even within one school, the admission officers are different. Each of them looks for certain type of student under the general guide line. have more of them read the common app essay could mean you find one of them liking it.</p>
<p>We have met quite a few parents whose children applied up to 20 schools this year. Some of them got in 13 or 16.</p>
<p>"ST2 : Yes, I don't know the system as both my wife and I didn't go to school or universities in US. So may be that is why I've so many questions?"</p>
<p>Welcome to the United States. Let me share some things with you regarding prestige in the US, okay?</p>
<p>Here, there is no "prestige" in looking down your nose at smart, hard-working kids who had the misfortune to be born into unfortunate circumstances. Only small-minded people would want to then keep them down. The truly classy are more than happy to extend a helping hand to them, and applaud them making something of themselves. And the truly classy aren't afraid of sitting next to them in Ivy classrooms for fear they'll catch something distasteful. It's not a caste system over here where we treat all people of a certain economic background as being diseased or untouchable, you know. They're people who just have had different circumstances in life.</p>
<p>As well, someone who thinks that an Ivy degree is the be-all-and-end-all of "prestige" is about as tacky as someone who wears Louis Vuitton from head to toe and thinks that therefore they've proven they have good taste. The truly "prestigious" here in this country are more than aware that there is more to life than the Ivies -- they value and respect many fine universities, recognize that one size does not fit all, and (gasp) that even includes fine public unis such as UMich or UVa or UIUC, many fine liberal arts colleges such as Carleton or Oberlin or Middlebury, the women's colleges such as Smith or Mt Holyoke, and the engineering colleges that were discussed above. </p>
<p>In fact, being obsessed with getting into the Ivies and thinking of it as the Golden Ticket for life is the absolute antithesis of prestige. It smacks of being new to this country (which isn't a crime) -- but in being naive, unsophisticated, and lacking in any sense of shades of gray.</p>
<p>"2blue : Ypu might be right but I think these children might not show their full potential at Ivies.
If you have really worked in such environment do you seriously think they will thrive more at Harvard than at state schools?"</p>
<p>Why wouldn't they? What do you have against state schools? Could you please remember you live in the US now where there are many, many fine state schools and many, many successful grads from them?</p>
<p>Post 178 is absolutely correct, in terms of histories of support for students at Privates vs. at Publics. One will find much more variation in the resources & motivation of the Publics to retain their admits, vs. those of the Privates. Some publics may do a better job at actively retaining than others do, but the record of Privates on this point exceeds overall. Size contrast in student bodies, and financial investment, are key factors, as well as just the 'culture' of the privates.</p>
<p>pita09 : Interesting post #176; I didn't think of that. Yup, forcing student to 4 reaches may make the spread better. It has been seen that mostly same set of students endup getting accepted at HYP; MIT and Caltech; Stanford generally overlaps with MIT, and Harvard but some time it is totally out of line.</p>
<p>"Here, there is no "prestige" in looking down your nose at smart, hard-working kids who had the misfortune to be born into unfortunate circumstances. Only small-minded people would want to then keep them down."</p>
<p>Thank you for this. This is a wonderful post, Pizzagirl.</p>
<p>Many others have responded the same way, but assuming you have a cc who is doing his/her job correctly, s/he is giving you an accurate assesment. Additionally, you should acquaint yourself with what has gone on this year. There will not be that much of a drop in applications, if any.</p>
<p>tli83 : The facts are that the students who are in real need of help don't get the help. I had a long discussion with my D yesterday night as she was also offended with the idea of not providing the need based FA. She told me that the children at elementary school she volunteers will really need help if they need to go to 4 year colleges as most of them are on subsidized lunch programs at the elementary levels so how can they be expected to pay big tuition. But she also told me that the high school that elementary school leads to have not sent a single student to HYPS in the last 10 year. </p>
<p>She told that it is really important to support the students who need FA at the top university as it provide more character to these schools. But yes the help should trickle down first to the elementary, middle or high school level otherwise these children will not be prepared to go to such schools to begin with.</p>
<p>"Why wouldn't they? What do you have against state schools? Could you please remember you live in the US now where there are many, many fine state schools and many, many successful grads from them?"</p>
<p>The place I come from the top universities in the country are public universities and private universities are looked down upon. So I'm not against public universities.</p>
<p>I did a study as part of social organization during my post graduation that looked into the career graph of students from the poor background at the university with respect to another university that was ranked much lower.</p>
<p>The data was collected over a period of 4 years. The students were chosen on the rank and choice of colleges. The system was very simple everyone from all background sits on the same exams and a rank list is created and the students from the top are called to pick and choose the colleges.</p>
<p>The student from poor background who had high rank but choose an inferior college to the rank flourished much more in their field of study and career than those who choose the higher ranked colleges. </p>
<p>I'm not sure if such a study has been done here but would be interested in knowing the results of such a study.</p>
<p>"The student from poor background who had high rank but choose an inferior college to the rank flourished much more in their field of study and career than those who choose the higher ranked colleges."</p>
<p>So, what you're saying is, the poor don't belong at Ivies... simply because they're poor. This is outrageous and frankly, offensive.</p>
<p>^^^: This is not what I said you are trying to put words in my mouth. I'm simply trying to raise the fact that a college that fit your prepartion might enhance your chances of being successful.</p>
<p>That is why students are encouraged to visit the colleges. If you have not gone thru a rigorous curriculum but get accepted a rigorous college you might have problem coping up. And it is a fact and should be a no brainer.</p>
<p>Will a student graduating at the bottom of a class at Ivies or graduating at the top of class at a state college be more successful?</p>
<p>I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth, I'm reading what you've said.</p>
<p>Kids who have had less-than-adequate high school educations still deserve to go to these top schools. It should have nothing to with social or economic advantage. These kids haven't had the internship, summer program, prep school opportunities or Ivy grooming like so many American children do. And they don't deserve to go to top schools because of that? Come on.</p>
<p>OP - was this study done in your country of origin?</p>
<p>If so, if your country of origin has a large rural population and then concentrated urban populations of elite, there is possibly a cultural adaptation or even a discrimination root cause.</p>
<p>US citizens, while still prone to discrimination, are less apt to inflict discrimination against their fellows because of regional or class differences.</p>
<p>^^^: Yes, the study was done in the country of origin. but no the problem was not discrimination; the point of stress was the lack of preparation. The fact that more students at the higher end colleges were from the private schools or highly ranked public schools with much rigorous curriculum it was diffcult for the few students who were not prepared that well and they subsequently end up in the bottom pile while at the lower ranked colleges the similar student were able to do relative well because they fit the class.</p>
<p>Georgeanne : You really try to misconstrue my points and for what reasons I don't know.</p>
<p>The point I'm trying to stress is that helping a poor child getting the Harvard education should not be the goal. The goal needs to allow such child to flourish in life; in their career.</p>
<p>If it can happen at Harvard well and good but if it can be better done at state universities then that is the route to follow. There is no one solution fit all that is why you have exceptional cases that come in to the limelight.</p>
<ol>
<li> My wife was someone who did not have a rigorous curriculum in high school -- she went to a semi-rural public school where only 20-30 people (not %) went to four-year college from each class, and she graduated in three years. She fretted and worried her way through Yale because she felt underprepared for everything. By contrast, I had a very rigorous curriculum in high school -- top private school, college classes, I won a prize freshman year as the student in my class with "the highest level of general culture".</li>
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<p>We graduated with almost identical GPAs, both junior PBK and summa cum laude. She worked harder than I did. She worked harder than almost anyone did. Still does.</p>
<ol>
<li> I don't think anyone can tell you whether a student graduating at the bottom of the class at an Ivy or the top of a class at a state university will be more successful, since college graduation class rank means next to nothing. The last two Presidential elections have been contests between people who graduated near the bottom of their classes at Harvard or Yale.</li>
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<p>On that point, POIH, I completely agree. :] Children should be put where they flourish best. However, I think the system of admissions for Harvard, Ivies, et cetera, realizes the educational discrepancies inherent in inferior public schooling, and therefore, you get the deep divisions in test scores/GPA.</p>
<p>JHS : Good point that you indeed recongnize that your wife did work much harder than anyone else.</p>
<p>"The last two Presidential elections have been contests between people who graduated near the bottom of their classes at Harvard or Yale."</p>
<p>We have seen the result of having presidents graduating at the bottom of the pile that we are in the red as a country for the last two presidential elections. These were worst 8 years anyway in the history of US.</p>
<p>I just realized that POIH was making an assumption -- consistent with his and (maybe) his child's thinking -- that someone who would graduate near the bottom of his Harvard class might graduate near the top of a state university class. That does NOT comport with my experience of the world. State universities are VERY competitive, especially at the top of the class, much more so than a place like Harvard. Someone who graduates at the top of a state university class would almost certainly have graduated near the top of a Harvard class as well.</p>
<p>I wonder how many people are going to decide how to vote in November based on John McCain's abysmally low class rank (at a public university, of sorts, no less), vs. the stellar academic record of Hillary Clinton or the even more stellar academic record of Barack Obama.</p>