Hi all,
I am a senior in high school currently auditioning for mostly VP programs, and one MT program. I have always always loved MT and its what I mainly do, and my main goal is to be on Broadway/be an actor. BUT I love to sing and what to expand my craft as much as I can, I love opera, and want an operatic career, but I’m worried if I do VP I won’t get the acting and dance classes I need to be successful in MT.
Any suggestions/words of wisdom from experience?
You can not have both despite Audra McDonald, Kelly O’Hara & Kristen Chenoweth- they all got their degrees a long time ago. In what you wrote above, you wrote, “my main goad is to be on Broadway/be an actor” AND “I love opera, and want an operatic career”, so which is it? If you really love MT, go for that, but if you truly love classical voice then go for a Vocal Performance degree. You will get the dance and acting classes within an MT degree but not within a VP degree and although you may find a school or two where people will tell you that you can audition for both, reality is, out in the “real world” a female is not going to get hired for opera and musicals. Even “classical musical theatre” is being retooled nowadays for belters, and you won’t learn that in VP.
My D was interested in MT and VP too and auditioned for both. In the end she let the audition experience and results dictate her future to a certain extent. She was accepted to both but the enthusiasm in VP was greater. And she just couldn’t walk away from classical voice in the end so she chose a VP program. It pained her to give up in MT. However she had never been in a fully staged opera. Once she was, she loved that experience and realized she made the right choice.
And the comment above is very true. The dedication and work needed to get cast in MT or opera productions is considerable. You will need to chose in most cases unless you pick a school that has a cross over program. But I would bet that even at those programs students start gravitating to one form or another pretty quickly. I hope the audition experience gives you some clarity.
And…if you do chose VP you will most likely need to consider grad school. If you want to be done in 4 years and living in NYC that would be MT.
Hi,
My D is a VP major at a top conservatory and her friend is MT major at in top MT program. Two completely different courses of study. I would suggest you research the different course requirements between the BM Vocal performance and the BFA Musical Theatre. The BM includes proficiency in three languages and intensive music study, the BFA includes vocals, acting, and dance.The vocal techniques are very very different. My D started in MT as a teen, once she entered a HS pre-college VP program-all belting was discouraged. Her friends that are trained VP and now crossover singers don’t really belt, but sing legit MT. I have noticed some post graduate workshops popping up in NYC for crossover training, classical to MT, but never the other way around. Both are highly competitive fields of study in which you have to develop a thick skin, and deep pockets. Good luck with whichever you pursue, and remember to have fun!
I absolutely agree @whelaxmom. My D is a freshman VP major. She continued to do MT until she was a junior in HS. She was a voice major in a NYC performing arts high school and attend a pre college VP program since she was a freshman. She decided at 16 that she wanted a classical career and gave up MT. She realized she could use her years of dance, movement and drama when she was cast in her first opera that year.
As @Mezzo’sMama stated you cannot have both. There are some schools that offer VP/MT degrees ( like Oklahoma City) but it’s not happening at the graduate school level or the real world. The crossover just does not exist.
Some of my daughters MT friends are in NYC auditioning now at 18/19 whilst in degree programs, too.
VP is a different animal entirely, a long haul commitment. One hopefully where young voices are nurtured, protected and grown properly & healthfully.
I wish you loads of luck and joy on your journey @sillysoprano.
@coloraturakid a little off-topic, but we’re looking…what was the pre-college VP program that your child attended from her freshman year of HS?
@Barnwellbaby, My D was at MSM and then Juilliard.
If you need any more info you can PM me.
I think the thing to do is choose a school that is “friendly” to both genres…You will have to choose a focus, but at a very few select schools it is possible to audition for both Operas and Musicals, and there will be some crossover in training. It’s just not possible (as others above have said), in 4 years, to get all the acting and dance in a MT degree, while still getting all the language and diction for a VP degree. Make sure that wherever you go, legit singing is the focus, if you have hopes of a classical career later on. And remember, you’ll probably go to grad school!
I have to agree with the others. Unfortunately you can’t have it both ways. It seems a shame that you’re forced to make a career decision so early on but that’s the reality. In the opera world, the ultimate put-down is to suggest that one consider changing to musical theater!
This comment is late in the game but as a musical theater student my advice is MUSICAL THEATER. NO QUESTION. I feel no wishy-washyness about this because as a student (I’m MT so maybe I’m biased), your fears about VP are totally valid. Unless you find a miracle program, you are not going to get the acting training you need. You might not even get the acting training you need to do opera.
There are plenty of people in my program with me who could cross-over and do opera/classical, and that’s because it’s easy to cross over from MT to opera, and it is WAY harder to go the other way. My recommendation is to go for MT and make sure that you always have a vocal coach who knows your voice type, knows the classical world, and can help you keep a foot in the door over there.
I would be careful in following the line of thought that an MT degree will lead to an opera career or that a VP degree will lead to Broadway productions. There are always rare cases but that is not the rule.
If you look at performers’ backgrounds, in YAP programs for opera, I doubt you would find any with MT backgrounds. But sure, you can find MT backgrounds in your local opera light productions in a summer community event. And maybe your school does the operetta Merry Widow and uses MT students. Or your school does South Pacific and has some VP students in it. Still…that doesn’t make a career. So I still stand by the comment if you want to be on the opera stage you had better go into VP and vice versa.
My D was at summer festival this year and was a background dancer and singer in two MT performances but had a cover in the opera (the main reason she was there). Sure she can still dance and act but could she get cast on Broadway for MT…noooo…and I doubt an MT grad will be showing up at the Met anytime soon (20 years ago … maybe).
My D chose VP after a wise teacher told her that she could continue to take acting during and after graduation but she really only had a one time shot (and open window) for intense vocal training that would set her apart as a performer. She’s in her last year of grad school and just prior to winter break was cast in a straight theater production opening in another week. It’s quick and fun…and paid. She still continues to get acting opportunities…bc she tries super hard at it.
I still stand behind the ole “try both” and see what the results are. My D just couldn’t give up classical in the end and she could give up dance…but it took until the end of the process for her to figure that out.
Will my D be an opera singer or an actor with really good musical skills or a sales person…she wants to be a performer…so any of those 3 would probably work…
Ok I’m going to be the devils advocate here and my position may not be popular…but here goes. As I’ve mentioned in other posts…I support the you can do both. If you want to major in vp and pursue mt later, do it. That is what my d is doing and who knows, maybe she’ll end up being a store manager for Walmart making $200k a year singing in the local choir. Maybe she’ll be the next Kristen. It could be worse.
I would agree that most “serious” classically trained singers are insulted by someone who pursues mt. So if I were you, my applications would be geared toward the crossover friendly schools (OCU, NYU, Arizona state). But be aware that you may be pushed to choose as you progress. My d current vp teacher at undergrad has “indulged” her mt interests, but is now pushing her to “decide”. He has even brought in deans from grad schools and current professionals to convince her to continue with opera performance exclusively. Nevertheless she wants both and doesn’t respond well when people try to tell her what she should do. So we will see how that works out for him.
All that being said there are countries like Germany and Austria that are more open to the crossover concept. The state houses produce operas and musical theatre in the same houses under the same contracts. My d is in Austria this year and her vocal program at the
Konservatorium Wien University is supportive of both her mt AND classical interests (including belting–which is highly monitored). Her recitals have included both. So it’s not unheard of.
The reality is that majoring in mt does not guarantee that you will be on broadway any more than majoring in vp will guarantee that you will premier at the met. Heck, I was a political science major and I run distribution centers and have a side business making costumes.
Kristen Chenoweth is 48, and the techniques she learned in school are very different from what is being taught now. Were she to attempt to take on tackling both now with her voice, the odds would be very much against her. Look at Kelli O’Hara- she is a legit soprano, not a “belter” at all.
As for the “crossover concepts” of German houses, sure Diana Damrau once sang Eliza Doolittle when she was a lot younger. Would she take on the role now? No way, because it requires an entirely different technique to sing the entire role on a nightly basis as opposed to singing a song on a CD.
Some singers can learn mixed belting safely and with head mikes, you can be heard, but it will do a number on your throat after a while. European houses tend to stick to the musicals that don’t strain the classically trained voices, which can’t be said for this side of the pond.
And @Sguti40, please let me know where Walmart managers make 200K/yr so that I can direct my daughter there! Her “day job” salary at the high profile tech company plus her singing jobs don’t even come close to that, so I’m thinking that I should send her to you!!
@Sguti40 I don’t completely disagree with you particularly at looking at cross-over programs. I think for some students they may just not want or need to decide if they find a good teacher at a cross-over program. That gives young singers some flexibility. My D did a BS (not a BM) and many do BAs for flexibility in undergrad study. My D continued to do acting and MT classes in undergrad.
Still for the OP’s question and similar ones I would still say students will be “encouraged” to pick one primary form (VP or MT) before or during their studies. And your D is experiencing that. So I do think students who want to “do both” would benefit from knowing that and understanding that colleges often view them as separate areas of study (BM vs BFA) unless they chose a cross-over program.
One other concern I had was the idea that going from MT to VP is easy. At my Ds undergrad she had many friends with multiple offers or got accepted at every school for undergrad. But for grad school some of those students had NO acceptances besides their current school (with little financial help). The number of schools and slots greatly decreases. For VP, grad school is a must. Again I think the OP should know that. It seems to be junior year that the need to decide gets intense so prep for VP grad school can begin in earnest. Or maybe showcases can begin for MT (my D actually did an MT junior showcase - and after that she pulled back to focus on VP).
For VP to MT, my D has a friend who wanted the BM but then to do MT. She finished her BM and moved to NYC to audition. I don’t know how she’s done. But for MT you don’t have the grad school nut to crack.
So hopefully this long discussion benefits someone.
While crossover should not be counted upon as a common route, there may be exceptions. But they are just that- exceptions. If you are comfortable thinking that you are an exception, go for it. Otherwise, pick a direction and put your all behind it. You can be sure there are 1001 other kids doing just that, and they will audition for every role you may want, so you better be ready to compete at that level.
This was my daughter also… a coloratura soprano who also loved musical theater. Her voice teacher saw her in the same vein as Audra, Kelly and Kristin and her recommendation was to be classically trained because as she saw it then a classical trained singer could cross over but a musical theater based performer could not. So my daughter did continue her vocal training at Eastman but as a student at the University of Rochester where she was a music major and had ear training and theory and music history and a double major in theatre where she did 2 musical theater electives as well as acting classes and so on. She has also taken Shakespearean training post-college. She is out of college 6 years and works in theater in an artistic development capacity with a position that equates to graduate training in arts management and also runs her own theatre company, Season #5 coming up this spring. Actually with this relatively new position, after 6 years post-college she has enjoyed her first paid holidays and now health insurance as part of her company plan so the timing worked on that. We covered her until 26 (thank you Obamacare/ACA and when she aged out, she had basic coverage through Obamacare/ACA as low-income). She has years of auditioning experiences, has performed Off-broadway and in Shakespearean summer stock. Getting back to study decisions, she did semester abroad in a music program in Vienna where her voice instructor said that with her high vocal soprano/coloratura, her road to a performance career lay in Europe and graduate school in VP abroad. My daughter was not ready to make that commitment for several reasons, longterm relationship, funding, living abroad, not ready to make that commitment overall. Renee Fleming by the way with a Masters from Eastman had done that and studied in Europe as part of her Fulbright.
The bottom line is that Broadway is not looking for high vocal soprano roles at least for the roles that one can audition for… they are looking for pop voices and belters. Here and there you will find a break-out performer but when you are one of hundreds waiting to audition the odds are not great. Remember unless you are planning to subsidize your daughter post-college (and plenty of people are willing and able to do so) you need a day job and preferably one that is flexible. Sometimes when my d was a nanny, she was able to get to sign-in in the morning but could not wait until afternoon to be seen because of nursery school pick-up. Sometimes an audition door closes at 5:30 but because of your day job you were only able to get there at 5:32. Guess what you are not being seen. Sometimes you wait all day and then are told we are typing and are only going to look at tall brunettes…all blondes and redheads can now leave or they say we are only looking for people over 5’8" so everyone else can now leave. Sometimes you arrive for a 6 PM call and are not seen until 10/ 11 PM. Even with agent submission, this is the scene.
@Mezzo’sMama I’m not talking about the person who runs the toy department and the location is anywhere in California. It’s the store manager who is responsible for $80m+ dollars in sales and 400 employees. There’s a base of $100k with bonus potential of 125% and that isn’t even in the complex areas of the LA market. Not sure about the other areas of the country, but yes that’s the pay in California. You can have your daughter pm me I have many contacts at the Walmarts in California.
I just think that the op needs to have a balanced response. For example the notion that Kristen and Audra are the only crossovers is not a complete statement. There are many other performers, Kelli O’Hara, Alfie Boe, Ruthie Ann Miles, Marin Maxie, Judy Kaye, to name a few. Are they the necessarily the big names…although I would contend that kellie is a big name? No, they are working classically trained vocalist. Just like there multitudes of working opera and classical voice performers not as well known as Anna N or Nathan G.
I wholeheartedly agree that, just like in opera, in musical theater you need to know and market your type-- ingenue, character actor, legit singer, villain, belter, dancer …whatever. And you need to do it where the work is-- New York, LA, Europe…wherever. But I always believe you should do what you like where you like to do it. Just understand the obstacles you may face and you make the choice.
I would hesitate to say that you can’t get acting and dance training in a vocal performance program. Yes, I’m part of Kristen C.'s generation, but in my BFA vocal performance program at Carnegie-Mellon (they offer a BFA rather than a BM) we had dance and acting classes the entire time. I just looked at the current program there, and there are still 4 semesters of acting and 4 of dance required for vocal performance majors. I see some of the remnants of my era are gone (we had a musical theater lit & rep class, and the voice department produced both an opera and a musical–with plenty of belting–my senior year, for instance), but I still think a program like that could be a solid option for a singer who loves both classical & MT and wants to keep options open for four years, at least. Yes, there’s a point when a choice must be made (Kristen, Audra, etc. eventually made those choices), but I’d still consider the right undergrad vocal performance program with the right teacher to be a path that could ultimately lead to a career in MT.
That said, I wouldn’t recommend it the other way around.
Oh, and full disclosure, my own career was in MT.
Hi all,
Thank you for your incredible help! I appreciate all your responses! I’m still struggling with this dilemma a bit…especially considering I auditioned for both MT and VP at my top school Catholic U and got into both…
Another option I have pondered on is whether to go the route of MT undergrad and then go for a VP masters, which Catholic U has as an option. Granted, I’d have to cover many language credits during my undergrad years and possibly during summers, but I’m okay with that. This way, I’ll have four years of pretty intense training in MT but still substantial classical voice work for two years after that. I am a legit soprano so I hope my voice teacher in MT might let me do some classical (i believe it might be required there to have some classical in your repertoire).
Thoughts?
Also, the MT degree at Catholic U is a BM, not BFA, so it IS a more music-centric program.