<p>What is the effect--if any--of a student applying to colleges that is no longer in the HS choir. My daughter is dropping choir for a number of reasons, but the primary one is that the director is not competent and is causing vocal distress: asking her to sing softer, not use her vibrato etc as she is too strong a singer for the level the choir is at. This has caused some locking jaw problems. We have an amazing voice teacher so all issues are remedied.</p>
<p>But how will this look on college apps? She is currently a sophomore and may rejoin her senior year IF the director is replaced. Schools she is intereseted in are Shepherd, MSM, Mannes, Curtis, CCM--the usual suspects. I just don't know what non-participation in choir looks like on the apps. We're in N. Texas if that is useful.</p>
<p>Thanks--I've been lurking forever and this has been an amazing wealth of information.</p>
<p>No voice faculty will be looking at her transcript nor asking about her choral experience, unless she is interested in music education. They will however be listening to how she sounds, her technique, vocal health, and musicianship. Make sure she has other outlets for performance.</p>
<p>Thanks so much lorelei. The director will not let her participate in the state UIL solo compeitition--a wrong decision, but whatever. However, she does have many solo opportunities outside of school and we are pursuing other contests and programs. She is getting great training and is commited to vocal performance as major. This does put my mind at ease.</p>
<p>My daughter never did choir in her school because she sang in local choral groups. The most recent was the Peabody Children's Chorus - she loved the performance opportunities and the instruction and repertoire were top notch, but she dropped it after junior year because her voice was just too mature to blend without her significantly changing the way she sings. She also wanted to be able to completely focus on her audition rep so she not only dropped chorus but didn't audition for any school plays for senior year. It has come up with several of the teachers with whom she had sample lessons and they all completely understand the choice.</p>
<p>ariamom - I have to ask since you're in northern Texas. I have read great things about the faculty at UNT - from working opera singers. As acquaintance of my D's is looking into it - but a year from now. Do you have a sense of the program there?</p>
<p>I agree that she should get out of the choir and find some other outlet. Choral singing and solo singing are different enough that some voices are meant for one or the other but not both. </p>
<p>I hope you are not saying that the choir director is incompetent solely because he is asking your daughter to blend in with the group. That, after all, is what a lot of choral music is all about. Some of the very best choirs are impressive precisely because they can sing softly and without vibrato for extended periods and then shake the rafters when the music demands it. It is not a bad reflection on either your daughter or the choir that the two are incompatible, it is just the way things happen to be.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments caretera--I haven't discussed the dropping of school plays her senior year yet! That is going to be a big one for her as well, but she already senses she might not be able to participate in the one-act play!</p>
<p>UNT is an excellent program (unfortunately, it's 15 miles from home and NOT where my daughter wants to go! It's on the list anyway!). Her voice teacher did her BM and MM there, but the faculty member she studied with passed away. We've seen a few opera productions and we've been generally impressed with the caliber of singing and playing. The students draw from all over the country and internationally--at least at the graduate level. I believe it too be a fairly competitive program, but by no means conservatory tier. The jazz program is phenonmenal and this is the go-to school for music in the state of Texas. UT has an excellent program, but they do not allow singers to audtion for anything at the undergrad level (at least the last time I checked). We will likely be going to the next faculty recital--I'm not sure when it is, but that will be informative!</p>
<p>I've not seen the practice rooms, but there is a relatively new auditorium which was lovely and had good sound. Denton is a very cool town--kind of an Austin vibe, but much smaller. I would definitley recommend looking into it--I think it's reputation is well-deserved.</p>
<p>Agree with BassDad--that the choral director may not be at fault. Also agree with others who say there are other venues for your D.</p>
<p>For the first time in his HS singing life, my S (formerly always a zealot for blended choral sound) is getting criticism from HS choral director about same issues (vibrato and volume) and while S is a little annoyed he is complying as he doesn't want to be a sore thumb. He has a Brit mentor who said that years of being a choral scholar at a particular Cambridge college (chapel acoustics required scaling back--or maybe the director required it!) forced him to scale back his voice drastically and it took him years to re-discover his full voice (wonderful) with a new (US!) voice teacher. At almost 30 our British friend can do straight tone or not, full volume or pianissimo depending on what's required. He is concerned about how S is being asked to sing in HS. But the HS choral director is truly excellent--of course he has to do what's good for the group, not the individual. Luckily S is a senior and luckily he has found other outlets for singing, but he also loves the HS group (and of course boys' voices as a rule don't mature as quickly as girls, if I'm not mistaken).</p>
<p>Thank you neumes and BassDad--I agree with you both completely. It was a struggle for us to come to this decision because this is a new high school and we realize it takes time to develop a program. A student with a solo voice will have to learn to blend, but when asked to do so without any direction on how to achieve the required sound without hurting the voice--to me that is the mark of an inadequate director. There are other good singers in the choir, but overall the choir is not being lifted to a higher level--it's playing to the average.</p>
<p>The director has incorporated little to no theory (a little solfegge, a little notation), has not taught any measure of music history or the choral tradition of the pieces they sing. The only insight she gives on the music is 'this or that phrase sounds so cool, that's why I picked it'. There is not a lot of education going on. She stands in contrast to her assistant who my daughter feels illuminates the pieces with explanation of what the composers are trying to achieve and manages to pull a better sound of the choir.</p>
<p>In no way am I about to suggest that a teacher cannot make the jump from middle school to high school successfully--but I think that some teachers are suited for certain age levels and I think that this director is one of them. It really was a hard decision as I don't want to instill either a quit-if-you-don't-like-it or "diva" attitude, but I do think dropping is best in the long run. She sings with an adult choir at church and is getting excellent training. We are going to look for other outlets, but time and the elements . . .</p>
<p>ariamom, if your D's school is anything like my S's, theater and choral programs are huge, time-consuming and difficult to juggle, and S is always having scheduling problems. So dropping choir will provide some flexibility in the HS schedule (and doing theater in HS and choir outside (plus voice lessons and competitions) will provide plenty of extra-curricular activity for college apps.</p>
<p>Ariamom: to be clear, she does need documented formal music experiences, not just random performance opportunities. She cannot walk into auditions and just respond if asked about musical experience "I really love to sing"....she needs a resume of that involvement. </p>
<p>While there are certain genres of choral music which benefit from lighter, straighter high voices, most choral sounds benefit greatly from rich mature sound which convey the glory of the human voice. Namby-pamby sections of singers sound weak, unfocused, and very unsatisfying. Only free expressive singing is satisfying to hear.</p>
<p>Ariamom, I posted a similar issue a few months back --
and received the same sort of assurances!</p>
<p>DD IS still in HS chorus, because she qualified for the Regionals and needs to be a chorus-member-in-good-standing to sing in the concert. But she may drop chorus next semester to take a breather from what has turned into an extremely disappointing experience for her.</p>
<p>She will be doing 6 weeks at a summer music camp starting the end of June. </p>
<p>She also sings in the church choir, and runs the music program for the church Sunday School -- got rave reviews for the job they did at the Christmas Pageant, which included some solos for her, as well! </p>
<p>She'll be old enough next fall to audition for some local "adult" choral groups, so I think that will be the direction we will head in. </p>
<p>Thanks again lorelei . . . she participated in state solo compeititon last year and recieved the highest rating. She will be doing the classical singer magazine competition in February. She is a frequent soloist at church and she will likely become involved in a civic chorus in our area that performs at a pretty high level. She got a leading role in the schools first musical and we're working on repetoire for a recital in her senior year--I'm hoping that this will all build a decent resume.</p>
<p>VicAria--thanks! It wasn't an easy decision to make and everyone's input has been valuable. What vocal program will your daughter be attending--I'm looking into others besides Interlochen and there aren't all that many vocal programs (that aren't fully MT).</p>
<p>Singing in the chorus is always a contraversy for singers. My S always sang the choir in addition to solo work and school and community musicals. One of his scholarships requires him to sing in the University choir. There are ways to learn to sing both. Choir singing is blending which can be a problem for a larger trained voice. I would imagine that switching between would be difficult for a young and developing voice. You might note that many schools that give "vocal performance" based scholarships will require the student to sing in the choir. Although I agree that not having choir on your resume should not hurt in college audtions.</p>
<p>I think this is a matter of taste and also one of semantics. What some people describe as a rich, mature sound is exactly what others would describe as a screechy soprano section with an uncontrolled wobble. I feel pretty confident that this is not what you mean by those words, but I have heard too many choirs that would have sounded much better had some of the more mature sopranos gone for namby-pamby instead of free and expressive.</p>
<p>Personally, I like a choir that can adapt itself to the music - light and straight yet well supported and with a sense of line within a controlled dynamic range for Palestrina and Josquin, full and rich with just a bit of tasteful vibrato for Brahms and Mendelssohn, dark and sonorous with a huge dynamic range for Gretchaninov and Rachmaninov...</p>
<p>As they say, de gustibus non disputandum est.</p>
<p>Agree that having choir on the resume should not be a deal breaker for auditions if you are doing other things. For most of them it is the audition itself that counts the most. That said, DD was fortunate to have a voice teacher that helped with any chorus issues and also a choir director and chorus teacher who were excellent at teaching how to blend without loosing the strength of the voices they had. Her church choir director stated that he strives for a blend of solo voices. Their HS choruses always ranked highest in competitions due that that same philosophy I believe. Now at college she finds it much easier to manage both demands, the chorus and the solo repertoire. She finds it interesting and challenging to learn both techniques.</p>
<p>Singersmom--It is wonderful when a high school experience can be so great! We are a very fast growing community which has opened three new high schools in the last five years. Ours is only two years old and unfortunately, I don't think the director selected was the right one. Fortunately, our voice teacher is helping to select repetoire that requires different tonalities so she is learning different techniques to achieve certain effects.</p>
<p>The problem my D had was that she was singing in the Children's Chorus - Peabody continues its children's chorus through high school and there are many kids who stay and "graduate." My D left off this last year because she really doesn't fit in with the children's voices anymore. She didn't feel like she was damaging her voice, but there were definite adjustments that were made. Since she is at a performing arts high school, she has voice lessons with her high school teacher every other day and monthly recitals and other mandatory performances, including Madrigals. Then she has her private voice lesson once a week - sometimes twice before performances. The Children's Chorus met for 2 hours every week with two major concerts every year and performances with the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, the Baltimore Opera, master classes and numerous other commitments. Add weekly piano and ear training lessons and her voice got tired just talking about it. She wouldn't trade the experience for anything - especially the experience of singing in so many different languages for so many years. Choral work also is great for sight singing. They have to master an amazing amount of rep in a short period of time.</p>
<p>We have been apprehensive about this same issue for DD who loves choir and classical solo. But she has not had a problem so far (3 years into voice training). Could it be because her school choir director uses her for Alto even though she is a soprano? He knows she is soprano but he needs good Altos so that is where he puts her. Fortunately she has not had any problems switching.</p>