<p>Mid. I was not responding to your post. I was responding to what appear to be some current or recent students.</p>
<p>Wlpoppa,</p>
<p>To be clear, students set the rules surrounding honor violations.</p>
<p>An honor violation is, very generally, anything that violates the trust of the community.</p>
<p>Students do not agree with the underage drinking laws.</p>
<p>Thus students do not feel like the community’s trust is violated when others drink underage.</p>
<p>Ergo, students do not declare underage drinking an honor violation. Step by step logic.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why you are raging against underage drinking in this thread anyway, given that neither the driver nor the deceased were underage.</p>
<p>@dukewis - Our prayers go out to everyone involved. Even though we have no connection to anyone there we feel the connection as parents of how horrible this is. My heart burns. I send out prayers to all involved and a quick recovery for those injured.</p>
<p>wlu2013. Typical logic of a student or recent student. “I don’t agree with the law, and therefore, I don’t need to obey the law.” </p>
<p>So, if the students don’t believe laws against marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc are correct, then those too can be ignored? What about rape, battery, etc.? Does this also mean that kids in high school can say the same thing–“we disagree with the law so its okay for us to drink”? What about kids in grade school?</p>
<p>Wlu2013. If you read my original post, I am concerned about underage drinking and drunkeness by those of age. </p>
<p>Drinking caused this SENSELESS loss of life and serious injury. Drinking and driving is a huge problem locally, nationally and internationally. The university, the honor council and local police should crack down hard on the underage drinking and of age out of control drinking. Period. </p>
<p>Ignoring the problem and copping out by saying its just a right of passage is pitiful. Ask those that have experienced loss of a loved one due to alcohol and most would agree that much more needs to be done.</p>
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<p>Well it was more, “we don’t agree with the law, therefore we are not going to enforce the law for the 50 year olds that drank when they were our age but legislated that we couldn’t.” The Executive Committee did not make the underage drinking laws, Congress did through blackmailing the states, and the Executive Committee is not charged with enforcing the law.</p>
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<p>Slippery slope fallacy. All the sudden kids who are 18-20 year olds and wish to drink will want to legalize rape? Kids in grade school are going to start drinking? I’m done after this post, talk about terrible logic skills.</p>
<p>Drug laws are commonly ignored across the country. People weigh the risks themselves. It has led to us having 25% of all prisoners in the world.</p>
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<p>You missed the entire point of my first post, where I noted that this type of crackdown does not work. It has happened in the past, and it drives parties further out into the country, leading to more drinking and driving and more dangerous drinking behaviors. It is counter productive, and is a zero tolerance policy for the sake of a zero tolerance policy and with little eye to the consequences.</p>
<p>You also really don’t understand the role of the EC. It is not there for simple conduct violations (a kid in the dorm next to me caught for smoking pot, for instance, has made a stupid mistake. Has he violated my trust? Not at all) and it, unlike the SJC, has only the single sanction under its belt to use. Dismissal. If it finds a defendant guilty, that person is dismissed from school. Every 18-20 year old that drinks should be kicked out of school, permanently? Crazy talk.</p>
<p>Of course, your wishes will never come true. The EC is elected by the student body, and the majority of the body is under 21. Even if the EC tried to kick someone out for underage or “out of control” drinking (however you define that or enforce that against legal adults I don’t know), that student would bring it to an open jury trial in front of the entire campus in an instant. No student jury would kick out a student for underage drinking.</p>
<p>Thus, this entire argument is moot.</p>
<p>Stop whining about the law. Sounds like obeying the law is a selective process for you. Is that what they taught you at W&L? Doubt it. If everyone walked around with your attitude, we would be in a lawless society. “If it feels good and I like it, I will proceed as I please.” </p>
<p>Come back 30 years from now once you have an adult perspective with life experience to back it up. </p>
<p>The fact that there is no outrage over this incident is a sad commentary on the W&L community. These losses are horrific. Something should be done. </p>
<p>Frats need to be held accountable for providing alcohol to minors. Police should make random appearances at parties and breathalyze randomly. Something needs to be done and the honor council should take the lead. Not sweep it under the rug.</p>
<p>I doubt wlu13 was on the honor council as I hope that the actual members have more common sense regarding obeying laws of our land. </p>
<p>A tragedy. Hopefully measures will be taken in an attempt o ensure it does not happen again.</p>
<p>The Honor Code and the student disciplinary process is fluid and changes at the whim of the administration. Students are disciplined inside and outside the SJC for example.</p>
<p>The SJC is fairly consistent in its decisions. The Dean’s in the past have been very arbitrary. If a Dean does not want your case heard in front of the SJC they handle it themselves.</p>
<p>Honor system does not, and cannot, be susceptible to adminstration pressure. SJC is more susceptible as the administration can appeal their rulings.</p>
<p>As a W&L student I find it ridiculous that I have classmates who have been found guilty of dui, assault, and sexual harassment but students caught cheating (and even though I do think cheating is wrong and it should not be allowed in our community) are kicked out on he first instance even though cheating isn’t actually hurting someone. A classmate driving drunk and potentially killing people (and actually killing them in this case) violates my trust way more than someone not citing things in their essays. I do agree that cracking down on underage drinking would probably actually be harmful to the community but this school is way too lax on some things. It makes me feel like the honor system is just for show.</p>
<p>Wlu789 - are you saying that someone who is CONVICTED of DUI, assault or sexual harassment can still stay in school?</p>
<p>WLU 789. Excellent point.</p>
<p>I do not think any schools have expulsion for a first time dui. If it happens it is extremely rare.</p>
<p>Yes, convicted as long as they don’t have too long of a sentence that would interrupt their studies in which case I’m assuming they withdraw. I know several people who have spent less than a month in jail for these (somehow they’ve all done whatever time they had over summer or winter break; the longest I know is a month and most are like 10 days). As stated previously in the thread, sometimes people with a dui will get a suspension but not an expulsion.</p>
<p>Dadofdaughter, I know most schools don’t expel for a first time dui but most also don’t expel for first time cheating which W&L does. Both instances when you’re caught are usually not the first time you’ve done it although one is actually a lot more damaging than the other which is why I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of the school’s stance on this issue</p>
<p>Obviously I’m not saying the school is full of criminals or rapists but I feel like in a discussion about drinking culture at our school the stance on duis needs to be pointed out. Maybe if kids were as scared of getting a dui because they’d be kicked out it wouldn’t happen as often (it happens a LOT) the same way the honor system “scares” people out of cheating enough until the students in the community became extremely against as a part of the culture, moreso than other schools.</p>
<p>As a current student I would like to explain our schools culture and traditions. In addition, I would like to share my thoughts on what we should do, as a community, moving forward from this tragedy. My purpose in creating this post is twofold. First, I want to explain how special and fantastic this school truly is. As a high school student, the rumors of drinking and partying at W&L were a cause of concern for both my parents and myself. I would hate for anyone to miss out on the experience and opportunities this school provides based on a bad internet reputation. Secondly, I hope that by contributing to constructive conversation surrounding this issue, we can prevent tragedies like this in the future. </p>
<p>Before I begin with my suggestions with what we should do, allow me to explain how our system currently works. Underage drinking is not considered an honor violation because, as others have mentioned, our community does not consider it a violation of our trust in one another. The honor system, and it is a system (not a code), has nothing to do with the “legality” of actions. For example, lying is not illegal, but it is a violation of trust and will get you kicked out. Underaged drinking, while illegal, is not considered a violation of trust, and is therefore not handled by the executive committee. Therefore, the legality of driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol is not relevant in deciding rather or not we consider it a violation of trust. However, that does not mean we cant consider it a violation of trust in the future. </p>
<p>Next, I would like to explain what is, in my opinion, and is not the problem. Underaged drinking is not the problem here, and I dont believe that a cultural acceptance of underaged drinking is the same as a cultural acceptance of drunk driving. By and large, the universities health center amnesty policy, fantastic RAs, and a close knit community that watches out for one another make the actual act of drinking safer then most anywhere else my friends attend school. DUI related deaths will not be reduced by random police check-ins for underaged drinking (as mentioned, that will simply move parties further from campus and the traveller safe ride system). That being said, the problem here is, if not a cultural acceptance, a tolerance of drunk driving. </p>
<p>For my suggestion? I believe that we, as a student body MUST decide that we WILL NOT STAND for driving a vehicle under the influence of alcohol. The honor system is malleable, by the student body. If we decide that a fellow student driving a car drunk is a violation of our trust, then we can make it a one strike your out offense under the honor system. For me, I consider driving drunk to be a violation of MY trust. I feel a lot of other students are of this opinion. I hope that we take the responsibility handed to us of caring for the honor system seriously and create a student wide push the make this change. Although not as catchy as the current dont lie, cheat, or steal I have no problem with the new slogan of the honor system being dont lie, cheat, steal, or drive drunk. </p>
<p>I love this school. I cannot imagine being anywhere in the world but here. This place is challenging, rewarding, inspiring, opportunity-filled, fun, and unique. I wish everyone could experience W&L as a student. That being said, it is not perfect, luckily we have the ability to change that! What happened was a tragedy, the school is giving, and there IS outrage. I hope and truly believe that we, as a community, will address this issue.</p>
<p>Please continue to pray for all of those involved.</p>
<p>General16 - Well put. The honor code should be changed. </p>
<p>I would also add that anyone who knowingly lets someone drive under the influence should also be considered to be committing an honor code violation. While it would be harder to prove, you would have everyone thinking about it all the time. I bet DUIs would virtually disappear overnight, and everyone would feel a lot safer.</p>
<p>This needs to be done, and it needs to be done right away - before school starts next semester.</p>
<p>dukewis–my s graduated from W&L and I am deeply saddened at this loss of life. Your post brought me to tears imagining the impact this has had on so many peoples’ lives. I will pray for all involved as you implored. I will also hope this opens a new dialogue about these critical issues. </p>
<p>In my view the honor code must be changed to address and include underage drinking and drinking and driving. These are clearly issues of “trust” and character and to say otherwise demonstrates a buying into the culture of alcohol infused social events and is a denial of the impact of these actions. I was shocked when I heard through the years about the level of binge drinking that went on, 12-14 drinks at a party was not unusual. </p>
<p>Beer pong was an activity at parent weekends?? In fact I have observed on more than one parent weekend the heavy drinking by parents, in one instance I was so concerned that I quietly offered a parent a ride so that he would not get in his car and he refused and acted as if I had offended him. This is yet another aspect of the cultural system that reinforces the “normalcy” of heavy and binge drinking and refuses to take responsibility for the modeling it presents to students.</p>
<p>From the Rockbridge Report:</p>
<p>"Dean of Students Sidney Evans said the school will investigate whether the incident was solely the consequence of one individual’s decision or if the fraternity hosting the party, violated a policy or was negligent in some way. That will determine which student disciplinary group, if any, gets involved. The Student Judicial Council handles individual substance abuse infractions, and the Interfraternity Council hears cases involving entire fraternities.</p>
<p>But the school’s immediate concern, Evans said, is to navigate the emotional aftermath of the crash.</p>
<p>“Right now we are just focusing on the kids who were hurt,” she said.</p>
<p>of course they do first need to truly focus on the kids who were hurt and all the students and families impacted.</p>
<p>It’s so painful to explore the possible disciplinary issues when there has been a tragic death…the timing really does need to be handled sensitively, but should not be pushed aside.</p>
<p>wlu789, general16, lindz. All good points on the honor system. Changes need to be made. Whether it is to the honor system or the adminstrative side. DUI, underage drinking, etc all need to be seriously addressed. The cop out of “everyone is doing it” or the excuse that “we don’t believe the law is correct” really doesn’t cut it.</p>