<p>I don’t mean for this to come across as rude, but the honor system has nothing to do with the legality of actions. We have a system, through the SJC (what you are referring to as the administrative side) which does administer strikes for illegal actions, such as minor in possession or drunk in public citations. If the administration wants to make it a one strike your out policy, through the SJC, for DUI then that is fine (I would personally support that 100%). However, they cannot mandate that we make drunk driving a violation of student trust and the honor system. I think we should, and I think that it will be a stronger message if we, as students, are the ones who stand up against it and deem it to be a violation of our trust. </p>
<p>Either way, as I mentioned previously, a tolerance of underaged drinking and a tolerance of drunk driving are separate, in my opinion. I don’t believe that anyone has said or believes that everyone is driving drunk or that they are doing it because they disagree that it is unsafe. At the moment, I believe that drunk driving occurs at the rate it does (not just at W&L but all over the Us) because we tolerate it with more leniency then we should. Luckily, at W&L, we have the opportunity to reduce or prevent incidences through deciding we consider it to be a violation of community trust. </p>
<p>Essentially, my point is that administrative action will be no more or less effective then it is at any other school that has drunk driving. Targeting drunk driving and underaged drinking simultaneously will shift the focus off of the bigger problem here, the one that is costing precious lives. True change will have to come from the student body. So, if you are going to lobby for something to change, lobby for students to TRUST one another that nobody on campus will drink drunk or allow anyone else to do so.</p>
<p>This kind of event is not new to W&L. It is likely that most graduates from the past several decades can recall a similar incident occurring while they attended W&L. The school really does need to take action to change the off campus partying culture. Reforming the honor code might help, but with so many students living off campus, recurring incidents are inevitable. Also, aside from the driver, application of the honor code to DUI seems impractical. Who would be subject to expulsion in these incidents? Everyone at the party? How could it be proven whether someone knew if a driver was sober? The most practical answer is to build on campus dorms, which will significantly reduce DUI. Most top tier LACs in W&L’s peer group provide on campus housing for at least 3 years. W&L has the resources to fund more dorms; it’s just a matter of priorities.</p>
<p>The honor system is not about ease of enforceability. If I am given a take home test and my teacher says they trust me not to use my book, then I wont. The reason I wont isn’t because I couldn’t. I could very easily go in my room, close the door, and cheat, no one but me would ever know. The honor system in relation to DUI would actually be very simple. You drive drunk, and it can be proven that you did (or you are simply asked about it and reminded that your response is on your honor), then you are gone. </p>
<p>I disagree the building more dorms is in fact the “practical answer.” Students already have “on-campus” housing, in the form of fraternity housing, where they can host parties. The problem of people having parties at student leased houses out in the country will not be solved by keeping an additional 400 students on campus. Without forcing people to live on campus all four years you will always have at least 400 kids living off campus who WILL throw parties. The problem isn’t where the parties are held, its how a few irresponsible people choose to leave them.</p>
<p>I also think that is is EXCEPTIONALLY unfair to say the school is allowing drunk driving deaths to happen because they prioritize… something (what is it that is supposedly prioritized over safety in your opinion?) over students lives. Besides, the school already has plans to build on campus housing, rather I like it or not.</p>
<p>The policies of “peer institutions” have little bearing on what would be effective at W&L. This school is a unique place, full of unique and bright people who are capable of solving this problem without stripping W&L of what makes it different (I am NOT insisting that a partying culture and drunk driving is what makes W&L different, quite the opposite). I believe that precisely what makes W&L different, the honor system, needs to be seen as the path for a solution to this problem. Besides, “practical answers” for drunk driving are practices at schools all over the country who also, sadly, have drunk driving incidents. We have a chance to try something different here, thanks to the honor system.</p>
<p>Even though I support more on campus housing options, more on campus housing would do nothing to stop this type of thing from happening. At all. All it would do is cause even more people to travel from campus to out in the country. Even if every single student had to live on campus I honestly think some frats would probably still rent out some houses in the country every year to throw parties.</p>
<p>I think making the honor code include drunk driving OR the administration enforcing a one dui and you’re out policy would rectify this (rather than a suspension). Somehow having more incentive for frats to throw all parties at their houses too rather than in the country would also help but I have no idea how that would even happen.</p>
<p>The only thing that would change the drinking culture at W&L is getting rid of the Greek system and I assure you that will not happen any time soon because of current students feelings as well as the feelings of wealthy donors who participated in it when they were here. I’m a member of a Greek organization and I do go to parties so I’m not saying the school should get rid of them but I think that it’s the only way some people on here could achieve a non-party school. Even though I participate in these activities though I do realize that this school has a serious problem with drinking and the way it is treated. People are way too lax with it, think that they are just like “normal” college students from other schools when they blackout or end up puking three nights a week, and I already know some people who have developed some real problems here that I think will continue into adulthood. I think part of this is because so many students did not ever drink or party before coming to college and they see how it is here and think it’s what is “normal” when it’s not. I agree with a lot of people here that the drinking culture should be changed but it’s not as simple as more on campus housing or making underage drinking an offense or any one quick fix.</p>
<p>Btw General16, I think the school does prioritize their image or donors priorities over students’ safety sometimes. They do not take harassment or assault seriously at all and allow people with records of things that are clearly unsafe for other students to stay at the school. I’m not sure what their reasoning for this is but I really hope it changes soon.</p>
<p>Expanding the honor code to cover DUI certainly may help, but that should not be the only change, given the ongoing danger of the party house culture. The legal consequences of DUI already are fairly severe, so would the additional penalty of expulsion likely have dissuaded this driver? Would it have dissuaded 11 people, many presumably sober, from packing into a single car? Housing all students on or near campus would decrease DUI and related accident risk, even if occasional off campus parties still occur. Even if only one life is saved, it would be worth the cost.</p>
<p>As for the question of priorities, the following linked articles might provide some insight.</p>
<p>The Student Judicial Council (SJC) can suspend or dismiss a student for a DUI offense. </p>
<p>"Independent of the incident system, the SJC may suspend or dismiss a student found to have driven a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs in the City of Lexington or Rockbridge County. Students who are convicted of driving under the influence of alcohol with a blood alcohol content (B.A.C) of .15 or greater are suspended from the University without hearing. There is a presumption of suspension as the sanction by the Student Judicial Council for students who are convicted of “DUI” under the legal drinking age of the Commonwealth.</p>
<p>There is a presumption of suspension as the sanction by the Student Judicial Council for students who are convicted of “Refusal” when arrested for a DUI offense."</p>
<p>@wlpoppa - You are undoubtedly one of the most frustrating posters I have come across on College Confidential. You have no right to assert your superiority over the numerous students who have taken time to say something on this thread. Why?</p>
<p>1) We are students. We go to W&L. You, on the other hand, do not. I’m under the assumption that you also did not ever attend W&L, so you have absolutely no sense of how things truly work here, nor will you ever. </p>
<p>2) I get it. I don’t have 50+ years of life experience to support my argument. Sure, there are a lot of stupid young people, but there are also a lot of stupid old people. I am sure I speak for many students on here who are offended by your sheer lack of respect for young people. I got into W&L (did you?), I also have a very good job waiting for me out of college. Most importantly, I am capable of making rational decisions for myself, and am vehemently opposed to being told what is best for me by snotty adults such as yourself. </p>
<p>To the people criticizing the honor system - it has worked far longer than anyone posting here has been alive, so one would presume it will continue to do so. To clarify, it is a SYSTEM - not a code. There isn’t a list of rules saying what we can and cannot do. I cannot figure out why none of you can wrap your head around this concept. I apologize if I am coming across as rude, but this is a very strong system and it bothers me to see so many people shooting it down. The honor system works through trust. The boy driving the car violated the trust of those he was driving, so reason would suggest that the honor system would rule against his favor. </p>
<p>I was friends with the girl who passed away. I am extremely good friends with the girls who broke their backs. I was even friends with the boy driving the car. Every single one of these people made a mistake - and none of them are bad people for it. It’s a tragic situation, one that requires response. I see drinking and driving following the same path as the use of fake id’s. NO ONE uses a fake id because it is a misrepresentation of one’s self and thus a breach of the community’s trust.</p>
<p>You link legality with morality, a sad tendency of the weak that tyrants have often capitalized on. Furthermore, your notion that the law is the only thing standing in the way of a grade schooler from drinking reflects perhaps your own inadequacies of a parent, or your grade schooler level of thinking (perhaps you should not be allowed to drink).</p>
<p>Often times the law and what is right overlap, but morality is never, never borne from law. Were drinking and driving legal, it would still be wrong, and we should still not tolerate it. However, you think underage drinking is a more serious compromise of honor than cheating. It seems you lack a fundamental understanding of the Honor System at W&L. The act itself of underage drinking does not violate anyone’s trust. </p>
<p>Logic classes are actually in quite high demand at Washington and Lee.</p>
<p>It is a proven fact that the human brain is not fully developed until the mid 20’s (link to MIT snippet [Young</a> Adult Development Project](<a href=“Welcome | MIT Human Resources”>Welcome | MIT Human Resources) ). Your ability to reason, assess risk, etc is far short of where it will be in 5 to 10 years. As a result, your ability to reason and think logically/critically about such things as drinking alcohol is not good. That is also why a disproportionate number of alcohol related deaths and accidents occur in 18 to 25 year old kids. Here is a quote–</p>
<p>“The specific changes that follow young adulthood are not yet well studied, but it is known that they involve increased myelination and continued adding and pruning of neurons. As a number of researchers have put it, “the rental car companies have it right.” The brain isn’t fully mature at 16, when we are allowed to drive, or at 18, when we are allowed to vote, or at 21, when we are allowed to drink, but closer to 25, when we are allowed to rent a car.”</p>
<p>Hate to burst your bubble but the science is on my side here regardless of what you think. Sorry that this frustrates you. Again, when you look back 40 years from now, you will understand my musings and likely agree 100% after telling your own kids to stay away from underage drinking. :-)</p>
<p>Without oversimplifying, it seems that the community of W&L students is trying to point out that the Honor System does not need new verbiage because it is equipped to deal with this and similar scenarios involving drivers who are not sober.</p>
<p>Put simply, getting behind the wheel of a car when you have been drinking, for the purpose of driving yourself and others home, is a lie (and therefore a violation of the community’s trust) because, unless you have fully disclosed your impairment, you are misrepresenting yourself as a sober driver. </p>
<p>My prayers continue for everyone whose lives are forever changed by this tragedy.</p>
<p>I do not think that students getting in trouble and accidents has a lot to do with the honor system. It seems more to do with the culture of the school, off campus housing and perhaps a hyper sensitive Lexington Police Department.</p>
<p>Young people are going to enjoy themselves. The school should provide a safe on campus living environment where they can party and not have to worry about driving home or the police arresting them for having an open can of beer.</p>
<p>Anything short of this won’t do much for student safety. Unfortunately most college and university administrations don’t act until events affect enrollment, donations and public relations.</p>
<p>For those of you that think the school supports its students here is a quote from a complaint filed by a student in court. Perhaps the Honor Code should apply to everyone at W&L.</p>
<ol>
<li>Before Plaintiff walked out of the meeting, Public Safety director Michael L . Young informed Plaintiff that
Washington and Lee could do whatever it wanted because it was a private institution.</li>
</ol>
<p>Source: CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 6:12-cv-00049-NKM</p>
<p>@FLAResearcher That’s not surprising, unfortunate, but not surprising. There is always friction between certain/most students and the administration (and its minions). There are instances where the administration at W&L way oversteps its power and gets away with it because the students don’t have any real power.</p>