"Waiting for “Superman” A must see movie - All discussions

<p>I WISH we had a Teacher’s Union in Texas, jym626… We have no safe-guards and no support here against unfair and outrageous administrative mistreatment.<br>
And

I don’t know if it is different where you live, but as a teacher here, I have a lot of money deducted from my paycheck which goes into the Teacher Retirement System pension fund every month. The School district contributes about the same amount, and, when I retire, I will get a monthly retirement check. Isn’t that how retirement systems work? My father and mother both receive checks from retirement plans they earned from work… How is this wrong?</p>

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Probably me–how silly of me not to realize that while trashing unions (as you and B&P had done in posts 141-43) was on-topic, defending them was not. I must have missed that installment of the Bill O’Reilly Correspondence Course in Dialectics.</p>

<p>Once again, shall we talk about education or shall we indulge in personal sniping? The latter is boring, the former is not.</p>

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<p>I really do not to offend you, but is the TSTA not an affiliate of the NEA, and is the NEA not a teachers’ union? Is the Association of Texas Professional Educators (ATPE) a defunct organization?</p>

<p>Ins’t the Texas AFT the Texas State Affiliate of the 1.3 million-member American Federation of Teachers and represents more than 57,000 members statewide?</p>

<p>[Welcome</a> to TSTA](<a href=“http://www.tsta.org/inside/about/index.shtml]Welcome”>http://www.tsta.org/inside/about/index.shtml)</p>

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<p>More from Texas! </p>

<p>ISD’s can’t collect political funds for teacher groups</p>

<p>In an important ruling this week, Attorney General Greg Abbott determined that school districts cannot process payroll deductions for organizations which would go into political action committees (PACs).</p>

<p>The ruling is significant in that it will require teacher unions and other groups to collect their own dues and political funds, and prohibit them from relying on ISD government administrators to do it for them.</p>

<p>[Tex</a>. Att’y Gen. Op. No. GA-0773 (2010) – Greg Abbott Administration](<a href=“http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opinions/50abbott/op/2010/htm/ga-0774.htm]Tex”>http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opinions/50abbott/op/2010/htm/ga-0774.htm)</p>

<p>If this could only be true in the entire USA!</p>

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<p>Same for Norway, I believe. And yes, it does make a difference. Teachers there are very well respected, as they are in China.</p>

<p>When I went into my credentialing program, it happened to be a special program in which they cherry-picked entrants You had to have graduated from a very selective U and done particularly well as an undergrad. It made a huge difference in the success of the program, and it formed my framework thereafter: I have always expected excellence among my colleagues and tolerate only high standards. OTOH, naturally that has entailed some disillusion in the post-Union era of teaching, which has admitted a mixture of brilliant and incompetent.</p>

<p>I haven’t yet read through all of the thread, but I will. So far, what I have read is that some posters lament the reality that parents make a difference in their children’s education, and that supposedly that fact is “unfair” because it results in unequal opportunity. What were you thinking? That the State can parent children? Were you thinking that those students without proper parenting or “dysfunctional issues” should come home with their teachers, who will indeed provide the proper afterschool educational setting? Because I am telling you that even if the supposedly “clueless” parents were able out of sheer luck to get their kids into the high-performing charters, performance demands exceed classroom time. </p>

<p>I do know how to get results from my students: damn right I do. I teach, one might say, “relentlessly,” “mercilessly,” in that I don’t let up. Any truly committed teacher does, because the passion runs in the blood. But I am no fool. While I do not second-guess my own efforts, the reality is that the students who are in 11th grade but writing like 5th graders are students without much literacy immersion anywhere outside my classroom, which is the opposite way that I and my credentialing classmates were raised, and probably the opposite that most CC parents were raised. Now, when they’re finished with me, they write more like 8th graders within a few months, but that will be difficult to sustain on their own once they leave my classroom, without my expectations and demands.</p>

<p>Education is beyond the building walls, folks. Even without college admissions concerns. It may or may not “take a village” to raise a child, but it definitely takes a village to educate a child. So if child does not get it at home, he or she will be exceptional if he or she seeks & finds resources independently, despite home environment. This is why the better charter chains (such as KIPP) select particularly motivated students to recommend to east coast boarding schools, because these charters totally get it that immersion is the key, and that a peer culture of academics is pivotal in sustaining motivation, especially among adolescents.</p>

<p>Even if every credentialing program were to return to the model I was privileged to have, that in itself would be insufficient to result in a sustained turn-around from what you saw in the movie mentioned. Add to that, removal of teachers’ unions, and again one could not predict sustained improvement. When the local culture and the wider culture, both, are at best ambivalent about academics (vs. say, professional sports, vs. recreation, vs. a focus on shallow “celebrity,” vs. an entertainment and low-attention-span mindset), then what is happening is a culture war. Add to that, parents who may not be functionally literate themselves and/or feel ambivalent themselves about the long-term value of education (or show it in their lifestyle & choices), and you have neither the elements nor the climate to shape your product.</p>

<p>There was a pilot program in the teaching of reading to rural Mississippi kids, about 10 years ago, I believe – maybe 7. I may have already discussed this on CC, but it bears repeating. This was a crack team. Every teacher, every administrator knew exactly what he, and she, were doing. They taped the lessons, which were also televised (I saw them); they interviewed teachers & administrators, some of whom had sacrificed about a year of their own lives to come and do this. (They were recruited from as far away as Chicago.) What they found is that minuscule gains were made. First of all, it took enormous work and repetition to make very small gains, in the most receptive and fast-growing of all ages: the primary-age child. No more than tiny gains were ever made, because, they discovered, nothing was happening at home. It was at that point that they realized it was more efficient to divert the funds to adult literacy. That was 1-2 years after Drosselmeier and I had a conversation about community learning centers (I had called them Family Learning Centers, I think), how I believed that was a better use of money in many environments. I don’t want to brag or anything (;)), but have you noticed that the Prez has been encouraging the same? And in my region, in the very low-literacy areas, this is finally what I also see beginning to happen, just now.</p>

<p>I went mostly to publics, growing up. They were fine publics, very fine. But like most public schools (even then), there were good teachers and bad teachers. Quality was uneven. What was not uneven, though, for almost all of us students, was that we could count on there being literacy at home – anywhere from just okay to really outstanding. So the home environment evened out variables in teacher performance. Because that is the model that the public school is built on.</p>

<p>Since the home enviornment is hugely unequal in our country, the only way to reduce the educational gap any time in the near future is to provide immediate boarding opportunities (with extended days and extended academic stimulation) to academically disadvantaged kids. I don’t see that as being a very politically viable concept right now, with money so tight. </p>

<p>KIPP provides a longer day, with doubling up on english, reading, and math (I’ve taught in them). That in itself is a kind of mini-immersion. There’s huge talk of college (which may not be mentioned at home). But the other thing that KIPP, LPS, and some others provide is consequences for behavior. The non-charter site school is loathe to do that: rarely does anyone get suspended; even rarer does anyone get expelled. Consequences at KIPP are swift, and enforced. For example, a student who misbehaved in class or didn’t turn in homework for several days can typically miss a desired field trip such as a whole-class outing, a whole-class retreat, etc.</p>

<p>As to “waiting several generations,” I know of no stand-alone Charter school that has been born in the last 5-6 years that isn’t required to meet numeric goals within a short time-frame. Sometimes that’s as short as one year, but rarely more than three years. If goals are not met, the charter may be cancelled. (And often this happens.)</p>

<p>I would agree that chartering is a path, both (now partly) intended and (originally)unintended, toward traditional public school dissolution – or least dismantling of the Central Office (particularly the State office). I see that as a good thing, if that’s a result and IF the replacement model can address a society very different than the society I was schooled in.</p>

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Please stop lying, nightchef, and trying to use this thinly guised “lets get back on topic” as a way to continue to try to redirect this thread to your agenda. Enough already. The posts you quote were about Michelle Rhee, not about your precious union. And my one post, of the 3 you reference, said that they did not allow her idea to come to a vote.** This is TRUE.** Thats is what I said, and I stand by it. I did not trash your precious union, so kindly stop accusing me of such, and stop projecting your sentiments and biases into the non-existent verbiage with your flippant and sarcastic attacks. Please- feel free to stop “boring us”, as you say, with the incessant blathering about the union. That would be lovely. Please stop. And talk about the education of children. That is what my very first post and start of this thread (now post #140) was about. By all means, lets talk about ideas to fix the education of America’s children. </p>

<p>If you truly care about the education of children and not your personal agenda, what ideas do you propose to fix this very broken educational system? This is the key issue and totally separate from your union defensiveness. I would be most interested to hear ideas about improving the education of children.</p>

<p>This article from the NYT [Movie</a> Review - ‘Waiting for Superman’ - Documentary on America?s Public School System - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://movies.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/movies/24waiting.html]Movie”>http://movies.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/movies/24waiting.html) is a nice description of the film. And this describes the scene I mentioned in my post you referenced

That meeting happened in September. Does anyone know the outcome?</p>

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Oddly enough, jym626, I think all the things I’m saying are true too. However, my very good public school education taught me that just yelling, “This is TRUE” in bold type is unlikely to convince anyone of anything. </p>

<p>And my plea to get back on topic was not a “thinly guised” anything; it meant exactly what it said. My hope was to convince you to stop wasting precious time and bytes abusing me personally for the crime of disagreeing with you, but obviously that was too much to hope for. I’m quite capable of pursuing my “agenda” on my own account without subterfuge.</p>

<p>As for ideas to “fix the education of America’s children,” one of the points that I and others have made in this thread is that effective action is unlikely unless we can define exactly what is broken–to what degree fixing education is as simple as fixing schools, and in turn to what degree fixing schools is as simple as fixing teachers. The answers to both of these questions–as well the answer to the larger question, what exactly is broken, and how badly?–seem to me to be taken as givens in the debate. To me this is symbolized by the fact that Guggenheim’s impetus for making the film was not the fact that he sent his child to public schools and found them wanting, but that he passed on the public schools because he took it as a given that they were wanting.</p>

<p>Thanks for the laugh, nightchef. I briefly skimmend the earlier thread on this topic (the first 140 posts) and see that the pattern was similar there, with other posters. Why don’t you start by suggesting some specific concerns you have with the educational system, unless you are perfectly satisfied with how it is currently being run.</p>

<p>nightchef- Why don’t you take the union discussion to the political forum where it belongs and not distract from this thread?</p>

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I’m certainly not perfectly satisfied with everything about the current system–for instance, I am unhappy with NCLB and the shell games and thimble-rigging that it seems to encourage. But I will admit that I am very satisfied with my own family’s experience in an urban public school system, and since I went into that experience prepared for the worst by the things I had read and heard, that suggests to me the possibility that the shortcomings of urban public schools in general may be exaggerated. So while I am enthusiastic about ideas for improving schools and education, I am suspicious of the current dogma that the system is irremediably broken and the only solution is to trash it and start over. </p>

<p>One idea I do like is lengthening the school day–as long as it’s done right. Common sense dictates that a workable plan for a longer school day is likely to involve staff increases, and I suspect in the current budget climate that’s usually where the discussion will grind to a halt.</p>

<p>Hey Friends - let’s stay friendly in our discourse, please! </p>

<p>And Xiggi, in response to your question:

They may be called unions, but they are not.</p>

<p>quote]One idea I do like is lengthening the school day–as long as it’s done right. Common sense dictates that a workable plan for a longer school day is likely to involve staff increases, and I suspect in the current budget climate that’s usually where the discussion will grind to a halt.

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<p>This idea is implausible from the get go.</p>

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<li> The teacher’s union would have to approve this, and since most union contracts are for multiple yrs, it would take many yrs to implement.</li>
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<p>Contracts with unions can only be voided for specific reasons. This would not be one.</p>

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<li><p>This maybe an option for K-6, but not for middle or hs, since, athletics is a part of the school system. Our DS plays FB against teams in multiple counties. Our school system may renegotiate to extend the day, but that doesn’t mean the neighboring county will. This impacts the athletic teams.</p></li>
<li><p>Children, like adults have a limited attention span. You can extend the day, but that doesn’t mean they won’t zone out, thus, they are not absorbing the material.</p></li>
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<p>Want to do better, make it yr round. </p>

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<li> Your urban area has worked, but Michelle Rhee in the DC area has highlighted in this movie that it is failing as a whole.</li>
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<p>Our kids attend a great school system, because we could afford to buy into that district. Not everyone has that ability. The fact that in our county on he east side of 95 homes sell for 1/4 of what they do on the west side, that the schools are failing also illustrates the problem within the educational system.</p>

<p>Our children have attended no less than 8 public schools in their K-12 career, and in no less than 6 states. I have worked in 5 of these states as an educator. I can tell you, in all of these districts/states I have always seen the same. Inequality. That inequality is a socio-economic issue. That inequality exists because of other reasons too…one being unions.</p>

<p>Sorry, but to me, there is absolutely, positively, NO REASON for unions to exist in this century in the US. Not one. I have still yet to see anybody give an undeniable defense for their existence.</p>

<p>Yes, Johnny Joe’s parents can get up into the face against a teacher. However, if that teacher is worthy, then the principal would still have the last say in the argument. What are Johnny Joe’s parents going to say… FINE, I am taking them somewhere else? They could take it to the board, but in the end of the day, the BOE will also have the records from the teacher to prove that this was not discrimination, it was about Johnny Joe. Being union or not being unionized will not be a player. The teacher in both cases will have to prove their actions. </p>

<p>I have a Masters in HR, and I can tell you there are 7 just causes to fire a union member. Can you tell me the 7 just causes?</p>

<p>Our country is not the same country as it was in 1920. There is absolute no reason for the teacher’s union. It is a PAC, and that is reality.</p>

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Um…take it to the political forum? </p>

<p>Oh, sorry, that’s only for defending unions. I forgot.</p>

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<p>It doesn’t have to be either/or, B&P. It can be both. For grades 4 and above, the students I have taught during long days at KIPP & other charters do not “zone out.” They simply have an expectation that this is The Program. </p>

<p>I definitely approve of a different configuration for the school year. Most other countries do have longer academic years.</p>

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<p>Did I say that? NO!</p>

<p>And I agree that a longer school year would also probably make sense. The summer vacation doesn’t need to be 10 weeks; 4 to 6 should do it. However, since many teachers currently supplement their salaries with summer jobs, they may excusably feel that a longer school year should mean a pay increase to compensate for the lost income. And the cost of air-conditioning those rooms for an extra month will not be tiny. So once again, we run up against the fact that most of the obvious ideas for improving education also mean making it more costly, and we’re not willing to pay what it costs now. To me that’s the fundamental problem.</p>

<p>(B&P–you’re absolutely right, I’m sorry.)</p>

<p>epiphany,</p>

<p>I agree, there are ways to keep the kids zoned in, but longer days is not the solution if the teachers don’t have the resources to create unique learning experiences.</p>

<p>The problem is not only the union contract, but most towns can’t afford to create unique teaching projects.</p>

<p>For example, in KS, a public DOD school system, their funding was great. They actually had enough money that teachers starting in K had money to teach science using K’Nex. Every yr the classes built these amazing systems designed to the requirements of the science directive for that grade. The 6th grade had this awesome rollercoaster which must have been 6 feet long and 4 feet high. The 3rd graders made a ferris wheel. </p>

<p>Kids were plugged in because the school could afford to think outside of the box. </p>

<p>In NC, that didn’t exist. Money was tight. Teachers were reduced to creating projects using their own money or the scraps they could put together from within the school.</p>

<p>I have to state as someone who worked in the educational system in multiple states, it was interesting to see teachers had a different view of the union. In KS, the union was a non-player when it came to their life as an educator. In NC and VA it is a big player. Teachers in this area where tax dollars fell short for the county budget, teachers were incredibly frustrated.</p>

<p>Look, guys, I also, for the most part, strongly dislike teacher unions. But anyone who thinks that most (or certainly all) of the troubles can be laid at the feet of unions has not done, as they say in medicine, a differential diagnosis. Some aspects of unions are one of the many things feeding a failed urban (especially) public system. But dissolving uinons will not result in a miracle. Nor will “merit pay” redress all ills, as one other poster (earlier) mentioned, because of the problem of the baseline, among other things.</p>

<p>One thing I do like about charters is that by definition it gets parents more involved and motivated, so that even despite whatever level of education they may have, they begin to see how important an educaitonal atmosphere is at home – or at least an atmosphere not opposed to that. Thus they also begin to see how important a universal set of expectations is in order for the child to succeed.</p>

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<p>“unique learning experiences”? No! This is how the school system has copped out to the modern culture. School doesn’t have to be entertainment. Again, I have taught in these schools. We weren’t doing “unique learning experiences.” We were doing saturation. We were engaged in counter-insurgency. None of you seem to get it. (Because you’re not from the kinds of homes that these students are from.) </p>

<p>And kids stayed, and stay, engaged. Because that’s the expectation.</p>

<p>Pima, I can’t believe you just said that we can’t lengthen the school day because your boys have football games to play. You know what? If we are really serious about improving school systems, sports leagues, marching bands, gymnastics clubs, ballet schools, and summer camps may have to do some accommodating. </p>

<p>And epiphany is right about attention spans. KIPP kids don’t seem to lose focus after 2:30 pm. But to achieve that, you have to put an energetic, motivated educator in their faces. All the time.</p>

<p>Everyone, but everyone, who has spent any time looking at education issues knows that extending the school day AND the school year is Step 1, the low-hanging fruit, the no-brainer. Doing that is the “secret” behind every successful charter I know about. The issue between the unions and the politicians is simple and easy to understand: If you are going to lengthen work hours significantly, your workers are going to ask for more pay. And of course the system already requires teachers to spend significant unpaid time to do their jobs correctly, so it’s not a small thing to tack on another hour per day of classroom time.</p>