"Waiting for “Superman” A must see movie - All discussions

Parents Forum
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<p>Any discussion about the salaries of teachers should start by reversing those silly policies of “negotiating” yearly professional salaries but immediately turning around and considering them as covering the strictly negotiated slots with extensive vacations and short work weeks.</p>

<p>Schools should be the epicenters of our communities. Just as we expect to see doctors and nurses working INSIDE a hospital, we should see teachers at the school during hours, weeks, and months that are comparable to most people professional activities. All work, including preparation for classes, grading papers, etc should be done within the “instruction week” and within the four corners of the building. The available time should be spent on tutoring, guidance, AND meeting with parents. </p>

<p>In exchange, the teachers could go home without having to take their “work” with them. </p>

<p>This might stop the continuous bickering about observers thinking teachers do not work enough and insiders pretending they slave everyday until 10pm on students’ papers.</p>

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<p>In VA and NC because of No Child Left Behind, we have summer school. That means the AC is running. Additionally, the administration dept works almost yr round. Thus, the AC, and lights would still be running during this time, so there is no cost saving.
In VA and NC the fall sports teams at HS practice during the summer. Again, the electricity and air are running…no cost savings.</p>

<p>I don’t bite off on the supplemental jobs, because teachers who are entering the system do not know if they will be hired during the summer, for summer work alone. The ones that I know who take a 2nd job, do it yr round, usually as tutors for companies like Sylvan. I will tell you our last home was in a community with a pool, and guess who I hung with at the pool…TEACHERS! </p>

<p>In our society, our teachers are mostly female because the $$$ don’t count as much regarding the family income compared to men. It is rare to see a male teacher these days. I will admit because of the rarity and having 2 boys, the only time I requested a teacher was for our boys and I asked for the male teacher. I felt that they should experience how noble the teaching profession is from a man’s POV.</p>

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Isn’t there a chicken-and-egg issue here, though? (I.e., do charters, by their nature, get parents more involved, or do more involved parents, by their nature, tend to get their kids into charters?)</p>

<p>Of course the involvement itself is a good and welcome thing either way, but the answer does have implications for whether parental involvement is really an inherent virtue of the charter model, and therefore an argument for extending that model.</p>

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<p>JHS,</p>

<p>I am not disagreeing with you, but the way the teachers unions work is district by district. If the town next door does not go the way your town goes, do they not have games, or do they pull out the students from class early? Either way the student pays the price. We can in PWC extend our day, but that means when they compete against FC they will have to leave 90 minutes early for the game. Should they not play athletics because they must leave early? Should we not play against FC?</p>

<p>College apps are not what they were 30 yrs ago. ECs and athletics matter alot. However, you belong to one school district, you have no voice in the other districts where they compete.</p>

<p>Look at your district school times. Are they identical to yours? Ours isn’t. Our neighboring county where we play athletic sports returns to school 1 week prior to us. Their school day starts 30 minutes after ours, but ends 15 minutes after we get out. It is their school district. Not ours. We are only 20 minutes away from them by car or bus.</p>

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<p>Enjoy the conversation. Parent here - education system is interesting topic for me. </p>

<p>S is a HS senior, D is HS freshman, strong public school in NC, current teachers (this school year for each of them) male:female is 50:50</p>

<p>I’d love to hear what you do about kids with unengaged parents - which I think is the root of the issue. If there is not enough time or money, what do you do?</p>

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<p>But they are trying to be! </p>

<p>By law, Texas school employees cannot be coerced into joining a union … is that bad? Is not having tenure … bad? </p>

<p>We have so-called unions in Texas, but with laws prohibiting their primary distinguishing features … again, how bad is that? </p>

<p>Is it a distinguishing feature that is now missing in Texas the ability of the unions to force everyone to pay dues through payroll deductions and direct the funds to PACs?</p>

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<p>Well, parent involvement (at least interest) is a Primary Cause, as they say in philosophy. However, many charter parents believe (initially) that their involvement will be minor. Surprise! And for some parents, they do, soon or eventually, opt out because they’re not prepared to take responsibility at home and/or to see their children held accountable at school.</p>

<p>Again, the success of U.S. public, non-boarding education is founded on a home atmosphere which supports and extends that education. Exceptions to this model exist – students who have “made it” despite home settings, but almost always a different mentor has stepped up to the plate and become the surrogate parent at school or in some other setting, or a group of mentors (at the school itself).</p>

<p>In some other countries teachers are given wider latitude for discipline for incomplete work, etc. In other words, they assume some of the parenting responsibilities. So parents (naturally) expect more of those teachers. Those countries also generally have long school days.</p>

<p>You cannot have a workable educational model which consists of a combination of little performance expected at school, few (or no) consequences for non-performance and non-effort (by teachers and by students), nothing expected or provided at home, and still expect such schools to succeed, as long as Superman flies in. That’s just pure fantasy, and unfortunately I’m not amused by it.</p>

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<p>I have seen it all. For example in our last district in NC. The teachers applied for every grant available. Most if not at all teachers received at least one grant.</p>

<p>These grants ranged from planting gardens at the school, to actually taking the students to an amusement park for Math and Science. </p>

<p>It may appear as if I was slamming teachers, I am not. We have amazing teachers in the system. In our school, it was a new science teacher (she was in her 40’s when she got her teaching degree) that applied for the grant to take kids her 8th graders to Kings Dominion. For an entire quarter the education plan was about geometry (the math issue…circumference, radii, etc) and the science part was about force. SHe spent hours investigating the rides, and the kids got to have a fun day at a park, but their assignment was to complete the mathematical and scientific equations for specific rides. </p>

<p>The teacher in our elementary school got grant money to create a garden with perennial and annual plants, PLUS, a koi pond. The kids learned much more from this than any book that ever was printed.</p>

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<p>I agree, I think unengaged parents are the root of the issue. The reason that teacher burn out exists is not only because the lack of funds, but the lack of support. I don’t have enough fingers or toes in my family to tell you the countless stories from teachers regarding how parents will stomp on a teacher’s desk claiming some form of discrimination against their little Suzy or Bobby. Yet, the same parent, will not attend parent teacher conferences, refuse to test them for an IEP. or my favorite…allow them to be sick on test days (as if they are fooling us).</p>

<p>For some parents it is a socio-economic issue. For some it is keeping up with the Jones family. </p>

<p>The stories I can tell you about parents would make your head spin…for example.</p>

<p>I was teaching 1st grade. Little Bobby, could not spell ANT. We started school in Aug. Dec. rolls around, and it is Friday, the day we give spelling tests. Bobby is absent. I call their house to ask where is Bobby. His father answers the phone, and tells me, I should understand, he is a painter, so when it rains he doesn’t have to get up early, which means they keep Bobby home. I inform him at this rate, Bobby will be retained because the amount of absences…REALLY, you would do that? Imagine being a teacher and having to deal with a parent who believes attendance does not hurt the child.</p>

<p>My 2nd favorite story to highlight the socio-economic issue in our educational system occurred when I was a remediation tutor for the school regarding gateway testing (3 & 5 grades). One child in 3rd grade was a legal immigrant child. She asked me flat out why she needs to pass this test because her parents/grandparents did not get passed 3rd grade so they are very proud of her success. Imagine being a teacher and processing that thought. Her parents felt she was a success even though she was failing 3rd grade from the national standpoint.</p>

<p>NC is hardcore, we have parental rights, but you fail the EOG(3,5,8), you will be held back. She graduated at the age of 20. She was the only kid in middle school that was eligible for her DL…couldn’t get it because you also need a certain gpa.</p>

<p>It really is insane regarding parents. They love to tell teachers, you don’t know my kid, but the reality is teachers spend more time with your child than you do.</p>

<p>If you want to get your child engaged, I suggest you do what I have done. Back to school night in front of the teachers with your child by your side, say this…You have my child for more waking hours than me. I am going to support YOU! Your child will chime in real quick, because now it is the teacher and parent against them. You as a parent said Teacher WINS! </p>

<p>Off topic, but many school systems have a great system for the parents. In our county, we can chime into the system and see everything from what they ate for lunch to their latest grades for the DAY (yes, it is updated daily). If your system does not have it, ask that they investigate it. Ours is so good, that when the teacher signs in to assign homework it is tied to our email. Pretty hard for the folks to remain unengaged.</p>

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<p>We do not, as far as I know, have a teachers union here. There have been some pretty ugly changes in the public school system due to the financial state of the counties, and many very competent teachers lost jobs simply b/c they were young and did not have seniority. Many were moved to different schools, and many were put in a pool and rehired. Many have huge class sizes for which it will be a struggle to give the students the individual attention they need. </p>

<p>I do have trouble, though, with the complaint I hear from some staff of a slightly longer day (10 minutes I believe) that allowed the schools to shorten their year by a week or so and cut costs of keeping the buildings open. I also have trouble with the complaints I hear of having to take a furlough day. There are many people who have no job. To them a furlough day would be a delight. Many people, both in and out of academics who work very long hours and who have after hours and at-home work responsibilities to do as well. I would like to see a school system that supports its educators. It is about more than simply salaries and the length of school days. I would like to see faculty feel safe with their students, feel able to give constructive feedback to parents without threat of complaints to the administration, to have adequate supplies for their classroom. </p>

<p>And anxiousmom-
I appreciate your attempt to keep this thread, which I began/resurrected or whatever happened, to discuss this documentary, the state of our public education system and the needs of the students and teachers. It appears, though who knows for sure, that nightchef either misunderstood or misconstrued a comment I made about a statistic that was mentioned in the film (which blueiguana clearly understood correctly) and seems to have decided to use it as a springboard for his/her issues. If it was an honest mistake on nightchef’s part, then an apology is fine. If it was a purposeful attempt to be dishonest, to twist words and falsely claim statements were made that were not, then that is inappropriate and disengenuous. It looks like it was more of the same from what occurred in the first thread on this topic. I wish to be no part of such nonsense, but if my words are twisted, if I am falsely accused of saying something I absolutely did not say, and if I am attacked and insulted, I will respond. I have no doubt that nightchef will wish to get the last word in on this. I asked, back in post #146, before I knew there was a previous thread about this movie, for nightchef’s opinion of the film, especially if nightchef was a member of a union (my post was in response to something b&p said). Even if nightchef disagrees with the content of the movie, I would hope that he/she will see it, and I am truly curious to hear feedback. Should be most interesting.</p>

<p>I appreciate the ideas some have posted and discussed here re: ways to improve public education. I don’t see the use of answering a question with more questions, as that feels like a trap rather than a discussion. JMO.</p>

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I make mistakes all the time, but the only mistake I’m aware of in this discussion is imagining that there was any use in asking you directly and straightforwardly to leave the personal dimension of our disagreement behind. I’m not aware that I have anything to apologize for, and this is the last time I will engage you on this topic.</p>

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Hopefully this is so. If you would stop attacking me, I will no longer need to feel the need to defend myself. It really is that simple. You “ask” to take the personal dimension out while making unkind remarks, accusations and insults. As I have repeatedly asked, for the umpteenth time, PLEASE STOP.</p>

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<p>"You cannot have a workable educational model which consists of a combination of little performance expected at school, few (or no) consequences for non-performance and non-effort (by teachers and by students), nothing expected or provided at home, and still expect such schools to succeed, as long as Superman flies in. That’s just pure fantasy, and unfortunately I’m not amused by it. "</p>

<p>Great words of wisdom on the state of education in the US!</p>

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<p>Nightchef,</p>

<p>You can’t apologize and then insult. You can’t play angel, when you have even attacked me. See your post 213. You wanted to make a point and tried to serve me to the wolves.</p>

<p>To me this is the teenage phone call…you hang up, no you hang up, okay on the count of three…You didn’t, well you didn’t either.</p>

<p>Jym, tried to hang up the phone by admitting, if that was an honest mistake okay fine, but you had to follow it up with insulting jym…“but the only mistake I’m aware of in this discussion is imagining that there was any use in asking you directly and straightforwardly to leave the personal dimension of our disagreement behind. I’m not aware that I have anything to apologize for”</p>

<p>Did you expect it to drop?</p>

<p>I agree DOC, until parents want to stop protecting their child or the cost of education, and face the hard facts our system is doomed. When parents want to step up to the table then we can have a meaningful conversation.</p>

<p>To those who support Teacher’s Unions that is one aspect that parents need to address. The sooner they understand how the union benefits for retired teachers are diverting day to day teaching funds, the sooner parents will rise against the unions. Pretty said that in Newark, NJ, one of the worst school districts in NJ, because of the union the principals only have to work 28 hrs a week, while their kids are academically languishing.</p>

<p>To parents, you do no good to your child by manipulating the system to your children’s advantage. Be honest, if they are having issues, yr after yr, than acknowledge it, don’t blame the teacher or the school…look at your kid. I love my sister and my nephew, but in her family, it was always the school or the teacher that was the problem. She refused to hear anything negative about her beloved child. She would call me to get advice, and I always told her, IMPHO it was her. She threw my opinion in the garbage along with the teachers, WE WERE ALL WRONG.</p>

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<p>Thank you, Bulletandpima.</p>

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I did not try to serve you to the wolves. That post was not directed at you, it was aimed at MomOfWildChild’s suggestion, in post 209, that my defenses of unions were political and off-topic, even though they were prompted by criticisms of unions. However, it was not clear from my post that it wasn’t directed at you, and that was wrong. If you’ll notice, I realized that and apologized immediately for it in post 216. </p>

<p>As for the rest of your characterization of the exchange, all I can say is that it looks very, very different to me. But I don’t want to waste everybody else’s time hashing it out in detail. I’ll only say that when I extend an olive branch and you use it as a stick to beat me with, I’m going to respond poorly, and I think I have that in common with most people. (And yes, the olive branch in question–post 199–was entirely sincere.)</p>

<p>Anyway…more about education, please.</p>

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<p>I agree, let’s get off of this tit for tat conversation.</p>

<p>However, </p>

<p>I also think that as far as education, IYPO you do not understand what many people are saying.</p>

<p>The Union system is NOT helping our kids, in essence it hurts them. There is a limited budget and the retiree benefits for teachers eat into the county and state funding. Money that could be spent on education.</p>

<p>The Union system negotiates the hours for teachers. It is not a yr by yr contract, but multiple yr. contract. The schools is tied to that contract. If teachers only work X hrs a day and get X hrs a week in planning, then the county/district/school must abide to that contract, unless they can fight the issue on 1 of the 7 just causes,</p>

<p>The Union, holds the cards and our kids pay the price. Ironical, since most teachers enter this profession for the kids.</p>

<p>The Union exists to protect the teachers…tell me, as a teacher, how they have been there for them. The good teacher, doesn’t leave school early. They work into the night grading papers. They write personal recs for college apps. The good teacher is the one that spends their own money to buy tissues for the kids snotty noses, dry erase markers for the board, batteries for the calculators, candy for treats.</p>

<p>The Union didn’t help them, they hurt them. They hurt them because they demanded that they only work X hours, and that means kids are failing. Failing kids in a district negates the 7 causes and the school could be closed, because of No CHild Left Behind. To save their job they have to stay after school to tutor…there goes that 2nd job. Counties with this economy and the amt of foreclosures have lower revenues, that means, less supplies for the teacher since the UNION will make them pay the retirement bennies for other teachers.</p>

<p>This is a socio-economical issue. The minute you start to understand the cost of the UNION, and how little goes to the members, the minute you will get, that UNIONS are hurting the school system.</p>

<p>That is why Michelle Rhee tried this new system. She tried it in hopes that she could break the strangler hold that the Unions had on DC. She tried it in hopes that she could save money and divert it back in the classroom.</p>

<p>This movie does not do justice to the motivation of why she took such drastic measures. For all that people say about her…her kids go Public, they are not Sidwell kids like some other DC politicians. She put her money where he mouth was.</p>

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<p>Agree.</p>

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<p>Wow. Just wow. Is the good lawyer the one that spends his own money to file the court papers for the client? Is the good doctor the one that buys full Rx’s (not the free samples) for the patient?</p>

<p>Listen to yourself. Talk about about a double standard. I carry NO water for teacher’s unions, never having been forced to join one or voluntarily joined one. I’m applying for jobs right now that require me to join in order to be on staff, which really burns me. No one tells me how to behave, dress, and count my time – because I have very different standards than what the union applies.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, it is not a “union” issue that teachers should have to buy essential supplies to do their job. Absurd.</p>

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<li> Let me suggest that whatever crisis there is in American education is not caused by (a) parents who show up at back-to-school night without their kids in tow, and without a theatrical vote of confidence for any particular teacher, or (b) parents whose Blackberries fail to notify them of all of their children’s assignments.</li>
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<p>My children’s academic magnet school worked pretty darn well, and I never saw more than the parents of a third of the children in any class at back-to-school night. (Those who brought their kid with them – that was disruptive and unwelcome. But we understood that it was probably a choice between that or not coming at all for many parents involved.) Many parents did not have regular e-mail access on their own.</p>

<p>At the school where my daughter teaches, which does NOT work well, she has met a parent of fewer than 10% of the ~130 students on her roster. A persistent problem is finding someone other than the kid involved who can speak both English and whatever language the available parent speaks. The parents are not checking their e-mails, because they don’t have e-mails. Sometimes they don’t have regular addresses, either. And they don’t have any frame of reference to understand what expectations they should have of a school, a teacher, or their own child.</p>

<p>It isn’t that they don’t care about education, though. Another persistent problem at her school is kids arriving late and leaving early because it is their responsibility to make sure their younger siblings attend school and get picked up later.</p>

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<li><p>I haven’t seen the movie yet, but supporters and detractors of it universally report that it takes a strong, strident anti-union position. So it doesn’t surprise me in the least that talking about the movie and arguing about teachers’ unions go hand-in-hand.</p></li>
<li><p>One of the things the teachers’ unions do that infuriate me is to resist objective teacher performance evaluations based on student performance. At the same time, education bureaucrats who claim the reformer mantle infuriate me by proposing only the crudest, most-likely-to-be-wrong evaluation strategies, ones that I would never rely on to distinguish good from bad teachers. Really useful evaluation systems are difficult and expensive to implement, and no one wants to spend money on that. Surprise, surprise!</p></li>
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<p>Each element of that translates into what we commonly call “throwing money at the problem”. Safety? Money. Facing down aggressive parents? Money. Supplies? Money.</p>

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<p>Do you not see the incompatibility between your statements? Student performance can, yes, be objecively evaluated, but to require the teacher to be 100% responsible for that performance, with the conditions you describe (which are typical also of schools I have recently taught in) is irrational. Even when, as you say, the parents do “care.” They may care, but they may have very few tools to be the required extension of the school day that is the model of the U.S. educational system, particularly if their student is beyond Grade 4. They have insufficient skills to check the homework for accuracy. Some of them are single parents and not even at home between 4 pm and midnight, so homework oversight is often absent.</p>

<p>If you (anyone) is going to require teachers to be 90-100% responsible for objective performance, then you will have to radically change the model of the American public school. There is no way around that. The expectations are incompatible with the economic and social situations of the families most affected by low performance.</p>

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<p>If schools/teachers are measured on improvement in performance/test scores without ancillary support services to help them address other school issues, problems can arise. [100</a> Atlanta school employees implicated in test cheating scandal | ajc.com](<a href=“http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/100-atlanta-school-employees-552164.html]100”>http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/100-atlanta-school-employees-552164.html)

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