Walking on in D3 Basketball

Athletic Recruits
21

Thank you.

I am quite experienced in youth basketball, and have a pretty good sense on the relative talent levels of D1, D2 and D3. D1 players are the best of the best, especially at a high D1. The talent gaps down are pretty big. The reality is that there are a lot of kids that could play D3 but it does not work out for whatever reason (don’t want to, can’t afford private school tuition, location, etc.). My D may end up being a recruited D3 basketball player if she works hard and stays healthy, and between her AAU coach, her HS coach, and my network, we can figure her process out.

Basketball is unique among team sports in that anyone can put as much time into their game as they want at any time. My son may go to the park this afternoon and play against grown men from a nearby city that show up there for pickup games. A kid or adult can’t do that in baseball or soccer or lacrosse.

My question is really specific to basketball and walking on at a D3 school. The part I don’t get is how the rosters at D3 schools are constructed. I assume that kids that are playing D3 are primarily doing it for the love of the game. They are not getting a scholarship and many of them have demanding majors. Do they typically stick with it for 4 years? I would think walk-ons are almost necessary for these schools, but I do not know so I am asking.

One other point: This is going to be less than 1% of a deciding factor for where my son goes for college. We are not making any decisions based on basketball, and are looking at a lot of big states in addition to smaller schools because the big states are excellent in CS. He is not good enough to play anything above intramurals at the big state schools.

22

My sons’ sport is soccer, but you can go to a school’s roster page, and you can find the rosters for past years. At least at some schools. That way you can compare years and see how many drop off each year. You can also see who gets how many minutes etc.

I don’t know why basketball would be any different from soccer, though, in terms of walk ons. In men’s soccer it is extremely rare for there to be any walk ons at all, and those that do rarely get playing time. (I can’t speak to bottom of the barrel programs, I would guess they might have a harder time recruiting and therefore be more open to walkons)

2 Likes
23

It can vary by school and by year. I know a girl in a different sport who had been on her national team who had to plead with the coach to “watch what I can do.”. She did end up with a roster spot but it was surprisingly difficult (and she was stellar for her college team).

In DS’ sport, there were only 1 or 2 “unallocated” spots available for walk-ons at some schools. Some coaches encouraged club play for freshman year and were happy to consider having those players sophomore year. Other coaches reached out to him when he had an RD offer, had him come play during a revisit and offered him a roster spot. In each case, it was really a matter of where these teams were in terms of personnel.

I agree that getting film together and talking to coaches about the process could be helpful.

24

The only way you are going to know if a coach takes non-recruited walk-ons is to ask them. It varies by school, and as gardenstgal said, by year. IME at the D3 schools with the highest level basketball there are few walk-ons. Where there are walk-ons, in many cases the coach was familiar with the player prior to coming to tryouts, there are relatively few unknowns making these teams.

Lastly, there IS significant overlap in terms of player talent in the various NCAA, NAIA, and JUCO divisions. There are student-athletes at the better NCAA D3 programs that were being recruited by DI schools (not power 5 but by conferences like the Patriot and Ivy leagues). Right now with many DI schools not needing players due to the impact of the extra covid year, very good players are falling thru to D3. Some might choose JUCOs, some might choose D2, but it is not a progression talent wise from best to worst going from D1-2-3, to JUCO.

4 Likes
25

The biggest way basketball is different than soccer is that anyone can work on their game to get better, at any time. I had friends in college that would play pickup 4 days a week, and they got a lot better over time. I know walk-ons who worked their way into contributing minutes for D1 NCAA Tournament teams.

That is hard to do in soccer or lacrosse. In those sports, if you don’t play your freshman year, your skills will deteriorate and there is no real path to work your way on to the team.

2 Likes
26

deleted – misread post to which had been responding.

27

With respect to recruited athletes at NESCAC schools, typically there are two slotted recruits per year on teams other than LAX or football. In addition, there are probably 2-3 tips. Slots are athletes whose academic performance is quite a bit less than the ordinary admitted student. Tips are athletes whose academic performance is roughly the same as other admitted students and are supported by the coach. The number of recruited athletes differs from year to year, but I would guess basketball would average at about 4.

The 2016 Amherst Report on Athletics notes that walk-ons generally have decreased over the years, and suggests that there is a total of only 20 walk-ons per class and that they do not get much playing time. According to the Report, they often drop off the team after the first year. The link to the Report appears below. Check out page 7.

Admittedly, this Report is only for one school, and admissions information applies to only NESCAC schools. However, some of the information illustrates trends at other similar schools. You might also be interested in the section on club and intramural sports.

3 Likes
28

The rosters at D3 schools are made up of recruited athletes and MAYBE one or two walk ons. The coaches recruit high school players who want to go to that school and who want to play. The coach may be able to offer admissions help. They may also have transfer athletes. Most coaches hope to have a full roster on the first day of practice and don’t want to rely on walk-ons to build a team. Some sports start before school even starts, so they can’t rely on freshmen walk-ons.

Ivy schools don’t have scholarships but still recruit. Your son can try being recruited and not wait for walk on opportunities.

You can look at the rosters and see how many years a player stayed on the team, or if they transferred from another school. I think many who ride the bench don’t stay 4 years but that’s true in all divisions, on all level of play. Those who are playing are having more fun than those who are sitting.

Almost all athletes are doing it for the love of the game, not for the scholarships or because they are planning a pro career. How many college basketball players were drafted last week? Not many. (One 4 year player from CU -go McKinley Wright!)

Most athletic teams have gpa’s that are higher than the general population of the school. Colorado School of Mines men’s basketball has 18 players- 15 in engineering, 2 economics, 1 computer science. Not a single slacker.

1 Like
29

I know basketball pretty well, and this is not an accurate statement. A middle of the pack team from a mid-major league like the MAC or even a low major like the NEC would destroy just about any D3 team they played. These games would be 50+ point blowouts. If there was so much overlap, you would see more D2 to D1 transfers, but those are rare. That said, there are some very good D2 talents, but there are actually many more D1 walk-ons that end up earning scholarships than there are D2 to D1 transfers.

JUCOs are all over the map because a lot of players got there because of grades, and there are some that didn’t get the college offer they wanted and they see JUCO as a path to a better program.

Once you get past schools giving scholarships, there is a big dropoff. As I have mentioned in other posts, there are so many ways for people, and especially young men, to play basketball, that committing to a non-scholarship team is often just not worth it. There are plenty of men’s leagues around cities that are very good without the time commitment, and most players can play pickup any time they want. I would expect that many of the better academic D3 schools have quite a few students that just play for fun rather than play for the school team because they have other priorities. Also, a lot of D3 schools are expensive and many of the same young men that would be good enough to play at those schools simply can’t afford to go to them, so they often go to a State U campus and just play pickup.

2 Likes
30

Thanks. You and others in this thread have convinced me. It is not worth another 5 minutes of my son’s time to think about playing D3 basketball. He should focus on school, and try to hook up with some good players when he gets to campus so he can win an intramural title.

Thank you for your help.

1 Like
31

That wasn’t my intent at all. I’m a big believer in the benefits of college athletics. I think it gave my daughter a lot of structure in her day and she had a wonderful experience. Some people use athletics to get into the college of their choice, but most really enjoy athletics and want to continue playing at an organized level.

I played intramural broomball in college. Fun, but not really an athletic experience. I also played pick up softball with a group of friends most Sundays and tennis most mornings with my roommate. Fun, but didn’t make me a college athlete.

1 Like
32

If you’re playing at the highest levels of youth soccer, often the coaches will not allow you to play high school soccer at all. The level of play in HS is inferior than the Development Academy League.

At our local public HS, there is a varsity, JV and freshman teams. Except in some rare case, like a late bloomer, if you can’t make any of those teams as a freshman (or JV as a sophomore or junior, if allowed), then the cold hard truth is that you should probably try another sport or another school. Again, there are late bloomers or kids who pick a sport later than the rest and are “naturals”.

Working on one’s basketball game with playground pickup games isn’t a great way to improve your skills. And much of your development depends on the players around you, which often isn’t that great, to put it mildly. I’ve played in high level pickup games, where you may not even get the ball (i.e., ball hogs, outsider), where everyone thinks they’re Steph Curry, and lower level games where movement is limited and the skills displayed around you are inferior and often dangerous. You can actually pickup bad habits. And ignore fundamentals (e.g., defending pick and rolls is almost nonexistent, on ball off ball D).

Working on dribbling, shooting, strength, conditioning, etc. is best done by yourself in a gym (with courts and with gym equipment) with and without a coach/trainer. Repetition, 10,000 hours, etc.

As for soccer (and basketball) there are many levels of play for HS players. In our area, we have pickup soccer games, organized leagues (A, B and mixed) or just show up and play. And that’s not even including indoor soccer and Futsal leagues and pickup.

4 Likes
33

My daughter spent many many hours improving her skills hitting a ball against a wall or a bounceback, or shooting on a goalie (or an uncle pretending to be a goalie). Plenty of pick up games in lax in parks or beaches on weekends, depending on where you live.

A disadvantage a basketball player has is the size of the team. A soccer or lax coach can carry an extra player or two.

1 Like
34

FYI, some colleges have “cut” club teams (a notch above intramural) that have limited travel. Those teams can have a high level of play and their own organized championships.

1 Like
35

Many college players will disagree with you on this. College players will often test their mettle in city pickup games during the summer, and the college players that don’t play over the summer will come back rusty.

This is one of the worst developments of youth sports in the last 20 years. These private clubs are often exploiting their players, and they squeeze thousands of dollars out of their parents, many of whom can’t afford it, with the dream of a D1 scholarship. Like any cult, they try to isolate their talent in order to make the families dependent on the club, which keeps them paying.

This happens across sports, although the dynamic is similar. The stars are overplayed and susceptible to injuries, and the bench players are getting milked dry for fees until they realize they were scammed and finally go back to the high schools or to a lesser club. Unfortunately, the high schools have not exactly bathed themselves in glory, which opened the door for the private clubs.

The private clubs are not all bad, but I advise parents to be very careful about the club, and be fearless about changing clubs if they do not like the direction their program is going.

36

And here it is: National Club Basketball Association. https://ncbbabasketball.org/league/teams/

Also, I took a look at Bowdoin, Williams, Amherst, and Rochester men’s bball rosters (most are 2019/20). The players are even bigger than I thought.

Bowdoin: 8 players are 6’5" and above, one is 6’11"
Williams: 10 6’5"+, one 6’11"
Amherst: 6 6’5"+ (5 at 6’4"), one 6’10"
Rochester: 8 6’5"+, one 6’10"

I’m not saying these teams are necessarily good, just noting their size.

2 Likes
37

Sushiritto is talking about college club teams (I linked to the main league above)…they travel and play other colleges, but are less intense than varsity teams. I knew one student at Penn who played club his first year, but quit midway thru because the time commitment was so high. These college club teams can get pricey of course, because of the travel.

2 Likes
38

I appreciate the research, and my question has been answered. Thank you.

39

First, I thought we’re talking about a HS student.

“City pickup games” for college level players like where? NYC? Seattle? LA? Maybe, depending on the park and game. But I’d be very, very careful about my participation in an adult game where my college scholarship or walk-on position could potentially be at stake. I’ve seen ACL’s blown, concussions and torn arm (bicep, tricep) and lat muscles.

Heck, I broke my 5th metacarpal hitting, er punching, a wall with my hand. Yes, self-inflicted. But they do happen. :man_facepalming:

Personally, I’d be shooting, dribbling, strength training, conditioning, etc. everyday in the gym, on the road, and on my own. If a college level player is coming back rusty, then that’s on them, regardless of playing pickup games. Anyway, college players can petition to play in an organized league, under certain NCAA rules, which may be changing as we speak. :joy:

2 Likes
40

D3 athletes are training during the off-season in school, and training on their own and competing during the summers. I’ve described that my kid’s D3 time commitment qas about 25-30 hours per week in season and 5-15 hours per week in the offseason in school. Summers, he would spend 1-2 a day training after work and competed in high level leagues which were filled with D1-D3 players.

1 Like