Want to get PhD, need advice

Graduate School
1

<p>Okay, not me. I'm a med student so that ship has sailed. </p>

<p>But, I'm mentoring a high school student who's not very interested in med school but instead is very interested in obtaining a PhD in the sciences (probably biology). I think that is very refreshing but I am not terribly familiar with the application process for grad school so I was wondering if someone can give me a broad overview of the most important factors for grad school application (GPA, GRE, recs, research, prestige of undergrad, etc.) and, more specifically, what are some of the important considerations when choosing an undergrad school (state school vs. LAC, prestigous undergrad or not?, strength of academic department, etc.)?</p>

2

<p>graduate school admissions is wayyyyy less stressful than medical school. GPA/GRE scores don't really matter at all, as long as they are decent. </p>

<p>Recs and research are probably the two most important things, and they can be correlated with prestige of undergraduate institution. </p>

<p>Research is definitely the most important-- grad school is basically research so they want to make sure that you know what you are getting into. It is important to have at least one long research opportunity (ie a full year), plus maybe summers. A school that offers a thesis is a plus. </p>

<p>Depending on what kind of research they are interested in would change the type of school. Personally, I think that a research U of some type prepares you better for graduate school, as you have exposure to a wider range of research than at a LAC. Also, it is helpful to get to know graduate students, in order to see if grad school is right for you. But plenty of people get into top grad schools from LACs, so its not a deciding factor. I also think that it tends to be helpful to go to a top undergrad school because the top professors tend to be at the top schools. If you go to graduate school, they will pay you, so it doesn't make sense to save money for graduate school. Recommendation letters from well known professors tend to carry more weight, all things considered. Science is a very small world, so if the people reading your app know your recommenders very well and they say very good things about you, that says a lot. </p>

<p>feel free to ask me any questions/ if you have more specifics, i'd be happy to help</p>

3

<p>I agree with everything ec1234 has said here, so I am basically not saying anything different, just adding emphasis.</p>

<p>Since recommendation letters and research are so central to science PhD admissions, it's important to go somewhere for undergrad where a student will have good relationships with a few professors, and where research opportunities are abundant and involve serious scholarship rather than dish-washing.</p>

<p>Overall, I would recommend that a student attend an undergraduate school where 1) he or she will be happy and thrive, 2) research opportunities are abundant, and 3) undergraduates can form close relationships with faculty members. In this sense, going to a school which has an outstanding department in the research area of interest can be a big plus in terms of quality of recommenders and quality of research opportunities available.</p>

4

<p>I concur with most of the points already posted, but must make one exception.</p>

<p>LAC are some of the best entries into graduate school because your professors actually get to know you. In addition, undergraduates (not grad students or post-doctoral fellows) are more likely to be major players in performing research.</p>

<p>A key issue whether a student attends a LAC or a large state school with large research programs: students must become involved with a lab to find out what research is like! Graduate schools need concrete demonstrations that the student understands what a research career is all about. Much less important is the focus of the undergraduate research. In addition, most applicants for grad school intern in research labs close to their home (universities, biotechs or big pharma) during their summer breaks.</p>

5

<p>So, recs and research opps are most important and GPA/GRE are only used as baseline screening tools? </p>

<p>Thanks for the info so far.</p>

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<p>GPA and GRE are possibly important for some fellowships, but other than that unless you do very very badly (<3.0, 1200?) the GPA/GRE scores are mostly just hoops that you have to jump through. I know several people with GPAs around 3.0 or possibly less than 3.0 who are at very top programs. If you go to a lower tier undergrad, you may need a higher GPA to prove that you can do the work, but I'm not sure about that</p>

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<p>GPA is pretty hard to keep up in the sciences, just because there are so many danged smart students in the subject. Evidence me: organic I, A (yay!), organic II, A (yay!!), inorganic...not so yay. It's graded by distribution, and while I'm doing quite well and understand the material at the same level I understood organic, I'm not doing better than the 20 people who received over 100% on the last exam. Pre-meds: grrrr.</p>

<p>But the OP already knew that as a med student--I just wanted to gripe. With regards to the high-schooler, I too am in favor of a larger university. It doesn't necessarily have to be top-top-tier, but choosing a school with a well-regarded biology program would be smart (don't let him/her fall for the overall ratings--"But Dartmouth is an Ivy and Purdue is like 30-something!"). Does he/she know what area they'd like to pursue? Encourage him/her to read up on professors' research interests before committing to a school. I know doing that let me say "Hey, wow, I'm more interested what the prof.s at [my current institution] are researching more than in what the prof.s at that UC my parents are pushing me to attend do."</p>

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<p>I don't know if med students have access to research labs during the year, but if you do. A great opportunity for this mentee would be to actually visit a lab and see the day to day operations involved in research eg. going to a lab, meeting scientists, hearing about projects and research questions, seeing someone working with cell lines etc. I also want to congratulate you on your mentoring. I have recently gotten involved in this myself and more mentors are always needed.</p>

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<p>Professors in med school would love med students who can do research during the school year but it's very very uncommon. Currently, I'm doing a couple of mentoring things which add up to around 3-4 hours a week. That's all we can really spare :) But, yea, I'm actually thinking about possibly hooking him up with a professor to do "research" with next summer (and I use that term loosely for a high schooler) just so he can get a taste of what it's like.</p>

<p>One more question: Is it important to major in the area you eventually plan on going into? (for example, major in plant science if you plant to do research in that area in grad school?)</p>

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<p>The word on the street is that you don't even have to do grad school in the department you eventually want to end up in. You don't really specialize until post docs (think fellowship, as it were in the clinical track).</p>

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<p>I think as a high schooler it's too early to know what kind of research you are interested. It is easier to know if you like something if you've done it in undergrad, but most bio phd programs are in umbrella programs so that you can try out a lot of different things. Plant biology might be a bit different, as there aren't as many plant labs at the top schools, many of the plant labs tend to be at larger state schools or related to the ag programs.</p>

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<p>But, say, you're interested in doing molecular/cell bio research in grad school, can you major in physics or sociology in undergrad or does it have to be some sort of bio discipline? Med schools don't care but then again med school doesn't really require much advance knowledge.</p>

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<p>sociology would probably be a problem... although with enough research experience I guess it would be okay? I don't know anyone who didn't major in a science and is in graduate school without taking some time off an working in a lab/taking class in a post-bacc sort of program. Physics would definitely be okay, as would most of the other sciences. It would be helpful to have taken the course work, otherwise you will come in far behind the others unless you are in one of the more systems-bio like programs which expects students from various backgrounds.</p>

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<p>the type of undergrad major is not important (other than it should be done well). It IS important to do well in basic science curriculum (similar to premed) for entry into most bio or biomedical research grad program, no matter what your major. In addition, it is quite important to get involved in research (either during the academic or during spring break).</p>

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<p>Just make sure that this student gets involved in research so they will have a strong research background to discuss. It is very important, especially if all other components (GRE/GPA) is not too hot.</p>

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<p>One thing I would add, as somebody who gives high schoolers help with the college app process, is that undergraduate programs are often impressed by high schoolers who have done real research. So if you were to help him get some research experience now, he might have more options when he's choosing among schools.</p>

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<p>"GPA/GRE scores don't really matter at all, as long as they are decent."</p>

<p>I think I know what he is getting at, but let me explain what "decent" means. In my psychology department, we don't look at anyone with lower than 1200 on the GRE. I have a friend now who's in a professional doctoral program who wanted to be in the Ph.D program that I am in, but was rejected because her GRE scores were too low. There is a saying -- your GPA and your GRE scores won't get you in, but they <em>can</em> keep you out. I think once you get past like 1300-1400, they're not comparing you on scores but rather on the other parts of your application. But there IS a certain threshold that you have to pass, and the higher you are over it, the better it is for you. For Ph.D programs (good ones), you should score at least a 1200 on the GRE and have at least a 3.4 GPA. You can, of course, get accepted with less -- it happens every day -- but the rest of your application has to be pretty tight.</p>

<p>I went to a small LAC with a good reputation, and I was able to get into research with professors in my second year. Sure, they're not doing top-notch research with huge grants and getting into "Science," but what is important is that you GET research. It's also important to remember that at a large research university, you may have to wait in line to get research experience and/or may not have access to those big names. A freshman at MIT is not necessarily going to work with Noam Chomsky, even if he went there because he wanted to. I go to a large research U now and we have very few undergrads in my lab, and most of the undergrads in my lab are junior and seniors. In my opinion, you need to start doing research before your junior year, because by the time you apply you will only have one year and a summer under your belt.</p>

<p>Also, LACs tend to be in consortia with or near large research Us. I went to an LAC in Atlanta and there were plenty of us doing research with professors at Emory, Georgia Tech, and Georgia State.</p>

<p>It is helpful to go to a top undergrad, of course, but not necessary. You don't have to work with a well-known or famous professor to get into graduate school; it is a boost, but what's really important is getting your hands dirty in the research and forming a relationship with your research advisor that will provide you with an awesome recommendation letter AND some good research training. My research advisor wasn't famous by any stretch of the imagination, but she knew her stuff and she taught me very well.</p>

<p>I also disagree that it doesn't make sense to save for graduate school. They do pay you a stipend, but it's not always enough to live on (ex. CUNY-Graduate Center gives out $18,000 stipends for their students...in New York. HA!), and I do know some doctoral students who had to take out student loans for supplemental living expenses. There are also things like relocation -- I didn't get my first stipend until the end of September, but it cost me around $4,000 to move to New York, get furniture, and get settled (including nearly $3,000 for my apartment). Life will be a lot less stressful if you're not wondering where that money's going to come from the summer before you enter.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
Sure, they're not doing top-notch research with huge grants and getting into "Science," but what is important is that you GET research. It's also important to remember that at a large research university, you may have to wait in line to get research experience and/or may not have access to those big names. A freshman at MIT is not necessarily going to work with Noam Chomsky, even if he went there because he wanted to.

[/quote]

I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's important to remember that "good research university" is not necessarily the same as "large research university". MIT in particular is a rather small research university, and a freshman would absolutely have access to top names for research mentors. I joined a lab that was doing top-notch research and getting into Science the summer after my freshman year; most of my friends started research by sophomore year at the latest. The situation is similar at Harvard, where I'm a grad student.</p>

<p>I agree that getting research opportunities can be tough at a big research university, but not all research universities are big.</p>

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<p>How would it work for a PhD app for a kid who did okay (2.5-3.0) in UG, then did a masters with 3.5-4.0 range (GRE 1200-1400)</p>

<p>I am advising a student who has been encouraged by current profs to go for a PhD and he is doing a ton of research (presenting at conferences, etc) in the masters pursuit, but is wondering if that 'just not into it' UG GPA will knock him out of the running before his app even gets to the review portion?</p>

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<p>If he did crappy in undergrad (2.5 - 3.0) then a masters is the only option. If he did well in a masters program, that will be the more important gpa to consider. Since his research is going well, he shouldn't worry as that will be the focus of his admissions.</p>