Want to go to top school : am I late?

[backtoschool31]

<p>Hi all,
Well, I want to do an MBA possibly to get into I-Banking (not completely sure). but am afraid that it may already be too late. The thing is I am 31 yrs old. I am concentrating solely on the best (harvard) for now. My case looks like this ..</p>

<ul>
<li>Masters in engineering from a top US public univ. GPA 3.4</li>
<li>undergrad from the top Indian university, IIT: GPA 8.0/10.0 (getting into IIT is supposed to be tough, I was like top 0.25 percentile or something).</li>
<li>about 4 yrs of graduate research experience. Advisor can vouch that it was high-quality.</li>
<li>After that about 5 years of work experience at 3 different companies. One of them is a startup venture that I joined to get out of comfort zone of a big company (that may show some entrepreneurial spirit).</li>
<li>I can get ok recommendations. Nothing stellar though.</li>
<li>Some leadership in a council position for the dormitory in my undergrad.</li>
<li>Can show great "personal" accomplishment and "personal" growth in my admissions essay, Nothing for the community though.</li>
<li>I have not taken gmat yet, but i took the practice one recently and got 700. I am confident that with little bit of practice I can get about 750 or even more (will that compensate for my bad GPA?)</li>
</ul>

<p>How much does my age affect my chances and what chances do I have to get into harvard?</p>

[backtoschool31]

<p>Anyone, please help!</p>

[gellino]

<p>That’s hardly a bad GPA for an engineering major; especially since you graduated nine years ago before what I get the impression is the increased presence of grade inflation in more recent years. You definitely stand a good chance. As an international student with a science background, you should be a good candidate. Definitely shoot for a 700+ GMAT and have good, clear essays of why you want the MBA degree.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>

How much does my age affect my chances and what chances do I have to get into harvard?

</p>

<p>I think you have an uphill battle. Harvard has been practising age jihad for a couple of years and favors younger candidates.</p>

<p>The following is part of a blog of a b-school consultant who follows HBS closely.</p>

<p>

Below, in next post, is Dee-Dee’s latest fog, er blog, on the very touchy issue of HBS and age, a topic we have been following like hawks for past coupla years but ESPECIALLY since fall when we first became aware of the new super-secret HBS AGE JIHAD, which was started by HBS Admin w.the idea of getting younger kids [e.g. 26 or less in many cases, esp. in areas of MC and IB/PE, exceptions for military, PH.D’s and rare oddballs] w. the idea that 1. younger kids are cuter, dumber, more easily trained, have longer earning curves, are nicer to look at, more easily cowed, etc. etc [REAL REASON], 2. recruiters want younger kids [dunno about that, but sure, could be for same reasons as 1. 3. to allow females to have career start, MBA and family planning before say 30 [older females now blocked by this Age Jihad thank you for CHOICE OPTION,but HBS continues to mention benefit to females, AMAZINGLY along w. all the other fog]. Her figures actually CONFIRM the age Jihad, by noting just how many kids are ~25and under, 40 percent OF THE CLASS, and as usual she leaves out the KEY stats, which is WHAT IS THE ACCEPT RATE FOR KIDS IN THE NEW DEAD ZONE, 27/28+. Yes, 541 kids in the class have been out of college more than 4 years, but ~100 of them are military, PHDs, MDs and oddballs. So like 441 real kids are left in age bracket 25+ and my guess is, the BULK of those kids are 25 and 26, and maybe 27–w. as noted the new DEAD ZONE being 28. With 27 being the gray zone, and 26 being the safe area, where you do not get age punished or benefited. If you are 1-3 years out, you def get a premium. What am I smoking??? How do I know this. We compiled more robust stats on my blog about age and HBS admits, see [2008 March](<a href=“http://hbsguru.com/blog/2008/03/”>http://hbsguru.com/blog/2008/03/&lt;/a&gt;) where did a sample of about 60 random admits, and they fell out as follows, for kids in class years 08, 07, 06, 05 we predicted 36 percent, and now DEE has said actual number is 40percent, so Age Jihad is worse on the super low end (and folks w. error of 4 percent, we are pretty darn happy w. out stats], but more importantly, for the next two class years, e.g. 04, 03, [age 25-27] we show class of 2003 being 19%, and class of
2004 being 31%–e.g. 50 percent of the class, there is ONLY 10 percent left after behind class of 2003, and if you keeping score at home, and applying next year, THAT MEANS IF YOU ARE CLASS OF 2003 [FOR NEXT YEAR] OR EARLIER, THAT COHORT WILL BE TEN PERCENT OF THE CLASS, e.g. 90-100 kids (higher number is accepted, not enrolled) AND MY GUESS IS, ABOUT 30 PERCENT OF APPLICANT POOL, if not more. To put that in perspective, say there will be 10k apps, 3300 of those will be geezers, of whom 100 will get in, for a geezer accept rate of 3 percent, vs. general rate of 10-12 percent (next year w. 10k apps). Even if I am wrong in speculation that geezers are 30 percent of app. pool (and that is a guess) we have firm stats w. great support in our own sample and Majesty’s partial stats, that geezer cohort is 90-100. FOLKS THAT IS THE AGE JIHAD. Now how else do I know about age Jihad. BECAUSE HER MAJ AND OTHER ADCOMS HAVE AS MUCH SAID SO. Many victims of age jihad are well-connected bankers etc. and their patrons often have contacts in adcom who they can query when ****ed, and many of the adcoms when pressed how come 28 year old ace banker or consultant or pe guy did not get in, HAVE ANSWERED, QUITE BLATANTLY, AGE JIHAD. Sure that is an easy way to get hothead bigshot distracted, but I believe it is true, some of the convos were actually honest, as I hear them 2nd hand, and you keep hearing it. Also, as Age Jihad issue has become more widely spread, kids are pressing adcoms in face-to-face forums etc. about this issue, and like only about 10 percent of Adcoms can lie w. a totally straight face (it takes lotsa practice). The rest of the adcoms get this grin on their face, and thru clenched teeth, sorta fudge. Also, in official feedback to WLers, those elite WLers who get feedback, adcoms are dithering over reapp issue and age, and wishing the call was over (happened MANY TIMES). So there you have it, Below is Her Maj fog, er blog, and it actually CONFIRMS THE AGE JIHAD, notwithstanding its not very serious attempt to rebut it.

</p>

<p>

DEE-DEE’S BLOG ON AGE JIHAD WHAT IT REALLY MEANS</p>

<p>This is probably an opportune time to address another frequently asked question: “Is Harvard Business School looking for a younger class?” [HELL YES!!!, WHAT A QUESTION, STRONG EVIDENCE OF A GUILTY MIND, WHERE DID THAT QUESTION COME FROM ??? ]</p>

<p>Here’s how the incoming class looks: we have 912 people expected to matriculate in September. 371 of these are what we call “within three years of college graduation” which means that they have graduated in 2008, 2007, 2006 and 2005. We keep track this way, not by age. About a dozen are coming right from undergraduate school - and another dozen were admitted directly from college but elected to delay matriculation in order to get some - or additional - full-time work experience. Many of the directly admitted college seniors have worked full-time already - all have had significant roles on campus or entrepreneurial experience. All directly admitted seniors are welcome to postpone their date of matriculation.</p>

<p>Back to the class profile and the original question. Do the numbers and I think you’ll find that 541 members of the class of 2010 have been out of college for more than 3 years. That’s more than the total enrollment in many business schools. [YEAH, AND WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO W. ANYTHING???]</p>

<p>Are these numbers “quotas” or “targets”? [YES, GUILTY MIND AGAIN, HOW COME SHE IS ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE,IF THERE IS NOTHING THERE, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM]</p>

<p>No. We’ll still do our evaluation and selection the old-fashioned way: OH BOY, CATCH PHRASE FROM OLD TV COMMERCIALS–CAUTION]</p>

<p>one folder at a time. [I GIGGLE] Lots of attention to the written application and mandatory interviews by invitation only. We ask the same questions about every candidate we consider: Is this person a leader? Does he/she give evidence of ability to engage enthusiastically in serious intellectual and analytical work? Will this person invest as much in the educational experience of others as in his/her own?</p>

<p>So the answer would be that we think you can come to Harvard Business School and thrive earlier in your career than you might have heard via the grapevine. [NO, THE GRAPEVINE, AT LEAST THE ONE RUN BYME, IN FACT SAYS THE OPPOSITE, TODDLERS WELCOME!!!]</p>

<p>That doesn’t mean that those with more experience should be discouraged:[HAHA METHINKS THE LADY DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH] apply when it’s optimal for you. When you can look at the questions we pose and feel eager to respond, that’s a good indication of readiness. YES, READINESS TO GET DINGED.

</p>

[backtoschool31]

<p>I always thought that if the average age of the class is 28 then just 3 or 4 yrs more than that (i.e. 32 yrs) should be no ground for rejecting a candidate. After all, MBA is supposed to make sense only after one has had some work ex and sort of discovered themselves a bit. Some discover themselves early, some take a few yrs more.
I hope they dont discriminate.
Any other opinions on my case, please.</p>

[VectorWega]

<p>Getting into IIT is obviously far more impressive than getting into Harvard. </p>

<p>So, my question would be: how many IIT grads end up in HBS? If the number is low, then your background is a bit unique and I see that as a positive. If the number is high, then you are just one of many (many many many) Indians trying to get into a top business school.</p>

<p>That being said, it seems that the ages of international students tends to be higher than that of US citizens and I do not see the age as a huge negative.</p>

<p>You stated that you can’t get stellar recommendations. If you want to get into a top school, you will want stellar everything, including recommendations. I would do everything (legal and non-fraudulent) in my power to make sure that I receive stellar recommendations.</p>

[Denzera]

<p>I agree with Vector.</p>

<p>And the blog posts quoted by cbreeze… wow. I think I am now dumber for having read all that.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>

Getting into IIT is obviously far more impressive than getting into Harvard.

What is the basis for your opinion ?
You may want to read this, written by an IIT grad.</p>

<p>[IIT</a> Acceptance Rate](<a href=“http://www.kamalsinha.com/iit/acceptance-rate.html]IIT”>http://www.kamalsinha.com/iit/acceptance-rate.html)</p>

[Denzera]

<p>That article argues that Tokyo University is less selective than IIT. It weakens your criticism of Vector’s opinion. </p>

<p>If this were a GMAT “most weakens” question, your article would be the answer.</p>

[gellino]

<p>While Harvard had the repuation of starting of trying to go a little younger when I was applying earlier in the decade, I don’t think it is really much different than any other top 10 business school. In my MBA class, 80% of the class was from 3-6 years out of UG, which should should translate into entering the program at 25-28 unless they’re getting into semantics in that article about age for applying vs enrolling and when people’s birthdays are. Either way, you should fit into that oddball, unique case candidate they discuss. Plus, Harvard isn’t the only school you should consider. If you’re looking at going into IB, you may be just as well served attending Wharton, Columbia, Tuck, UChicago, NYU anyway.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>

That article argues that Tokyo University is less selective than IIT

</p>

<p>Huh? Are we reading the same article?</p>

<p>

Take Tokyo University for comparision. An overwhelming majority of the graduating seniors choose Todai as their first choice. This means that Tokyo University is about twice (3500/1500) as selective as the IITs and more likely at least four times as selective than the IITs when engineering departments are compared.

</p>

<p>

While it seems true that admission rate at IITs is less than even the most selective US school like the CalTech, it does not mean IIT recruits students of higher caliber. In a country like the USA, educational resources were well developed and the enrollment capacity for engineering majors is kept about the same as the number of seniors intending to enter those programs, if not more. It means less desparation. Moreover, there are lot of top-notch schools of about equal caliber which decreases their selectivity figures. My guess is that the top 50 engineering schools in the USA exceed IITs in almost all respect and another 100 or so other schools are not far behind.

</p>

[backtoschool31]

<p>Not all of what this IIT grad’s article can stand to reason. How does he define calibre? He may be being modest in saying what he says or he may have sacrificed the subtle differences that exist in what he wanted to say for the sake of brevity. The way he has said things is comparing apples and oranges. Also, some people get in IIT through a different channel labeled scheduled caste quota (kind of like big-time affirmative action with no regard for entrance examination performance), and he may be one of those, so their view may be different.
I don’t mean to brag but I am proud that I entered IIT solely on my entrance examination performance and I graduated from the same IIT from a top ranked major with a respectable class rank. I also went to a top US univ for graduate studies.
I think in terms of raw potential a high ranked IIT grad easily matches up to the best US students, and the word “raw” is important here.
If you really want to dig deep and analyze this (which I think is a futile exercise), you have to account for different education systems (US vs India), different expectations (intense 12 hour exam distributed in 4 phases in IIT entrance vs american application system that takes multiple factors into account), difference in culture (Indian culture respects natural greatness immensely vs american that respects long-time performance etc) etc. All in all, in a society (like India) where resources are scarce it’s best bet to select guys who stand the best chance given least resources and that is what IIT entrance tests for- Intense problem solving. That strategy of applicant selection is not most advantageous in a more everyone-has-basic-resources kind of society like US and the best strategy in such society changes to selecting the applicants who have balanced combination of inclination, environment, temperament, character etc, which is how american admission system evaluates candidates.<br>
Sorry to have digressed. Any more comments on my original post about my chances, and how my age could be an issue (I will be probably 33 when i actually join mba), please.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>Backtoschool 31, I really think that at 33, most people are going to an EMBA rather than a full time MBA program.
This is especially true if you want to go into IB where recruiters want them younger (you will be competing with a lot of 26-28 year old guys and gals at graduation vs you at 35) so they can work ridiculously long hours without any family or social concerns.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>I found this in another forum by a well respected b-school consultant in response to the age issue. He is not the same consultant whose blog I quoted above. Hope this helps.</p>

<p>

*  76618.4
* Reply to 76618.1</p>

<p>You probably already know this, but full-time programs are designed for students who are early in their careers (i.e. younger than older).</p>

<p>However, the lower ranked schools (below top 16) are more willing to overlook your age if you have an exceptional GMAT score (740+) and a decent resume. Even schools outside of HBS, Wharton or Stanford are willing to overlook your age if you have an exceptional GMAT, decent resume, and a very clear idea about what you hope to get out of an MBA which may be a little different than someone who is 5+ years younger or in a different stage of life than you are.</p>

<p>Also, keep in mind that not all older applicants are treated equal. If you are in investment banking or management consulting, there is a “best before” date simply because after 3-4 years in these jobs you should be already at a post-MBA level, making it much harder to justify why you need an MBA. For IT consulting, engineering or corporate (HR, marketing, product mgmt, etc.) the sweet spot is around 4-6 years experience. If you are in your early 30s and in any of these fields, you will have an uphill climb (I know, you’ll get people here posting anecdotal stories about how they know so and so at this school who is 42, and so forth - but statistically, at full-time programs the overwhelming majority are under 30). if you are older and in this group, it is absolutely essential to have exceptional GMATs, a strong resume (you are held to a higher standard simply because you have more experience and therefore should have more accomplishments), but at the same time being able to convince the adcom why you really need an MBA at this point in your life if you’re already that much more successful than your younger counterparts. And beyond that, you need luck - adcoms can admit or reject you for <em>any</em> reason or <em>no</em> reason, and if an adcom happens to dig your story, you will get the green light.</p>

<p>Now, if you don’t come from these fields - i.e. you are a military officer, a PhD researcher, lawyer, physician, schoolteacher, priest, nonprofit professional, etc. then age becomes less of an issue (and you’ll see that most of the older folks at full-time programs are from non-traditional backgrounds). If you are in this group, the key issue you need to convey is why you need an MBA and why you are making such a significant change in your career at this point in your life. It’s got to be specific, clear and sincere (all easier said than done in 500 words or less in the essays). And with schools that ask about “contribution to the MBA community” – its not really about your age, and more about how your non-traditional professional background can be a valuable resource during classroom discussions.

</p>

[backtoschool31]

<p>Sorry, but in a this age discrimination is outrageous. What about people like me who came to this country with almost nothing except a respectable undergrad degree and it does take years to acclimatize oneself with a totally new culture and understand what new doors have been opened by getting in US. I mean, MBA cost money and for a person like me, who comes from a tiny unknown town, who had not even seen a big city in india let alone US, IIT was my only ticket to get out of a miserable life in a small town in india.
It did take me a lot of time (now abt 9 yrs) to come to terms with new culture, langauge, and what I could with this new found security of living in US.
EMBA seems like a different program. One of my motivations for full-time MBA was also to be a part of the network and build connections while at school (As I have known the hard way the difference it makes. You can be much brighter and slog hard solo but it would not matter, because the other guy who is probably equally smart and does not even work as hard as you gets much ahead due to help from his environment of connections and network) and you cant overestimate the importance of one. I am not sure if EMBA will help me do that.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>While I empathize with you, there are millions of successful people in this world who have made it without an MBA from Harvard.</p>

<p>Perhaps you will be one of the lucky ones, good luck.</p>