<p>College is not a business. Most universities are nonprofit research universities. Colleges are not a business as you have just stated. Colleges seek to sustain their endowment, but not to the extent where they are working for profit and destroy the other competition to become the dominant forces in the industry as you do in a business. Colleges are establshed for research higher learning educational purposes only. Anything beyond that is not the mission or intent of the university.</p>
<p>Sounds like someone doth protest a bit too much!! What did WashU ever do to you Phead?</p>
<p>phead: </p>
<p>Don't put so much blind faith into the PR rating. If you want to gain some insight, I suggest you do a "search forum" for the words "peer assessment." Try it, oh, just about anywhere on CC: College Search, College Admissions, Parent Forum. You will find that there are reams of debate about whether the Peer Review category in USNWR is even remotely reliable as a ranking measure --- with some supporting it staunchly and others noting that it is, very possibly, garbage. There have been interviews cited in these long debate threads (you can look them up) in which some university officials admit that they don't fill out the surveys themselves --- maybe they get handed to a secretary who is told, essentially, just fill it out the way we have always done it --- or, as others have been quoted saying, the survey is used to "reward our friends and punish our enemies." </p>
<p>PR is not something divinely correct, handed down from above, which is why it is just ONE component (imo an overly weighted one considering its subjectivity and questionableness) out of the TOTAL score by which universities are assessed for their spot in that particular ranking methodology. </p>
<p>Here is another source that ranked the national universities using NINE different measures. Take your time reading through it. Among the 200 top research universities in America, WashU ranks in the top 10 (#8) among the privates and when you add in the publics and the privates, WashU ranks #15. Not far off from its USNWR ranking. (See particularly pages 8 and 12 or maybe 13.) </p>
<p><a href="http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf</a></p>
<p>Phead128:
After reading some of your other posts it seems you have an axe to grind with Wash U, and most any other school except John Hopkins. You also seem to have way too much free time on your hands to spend here on CC pontificating on your superior knowledge on most every subject. Give it a rest already Mr Know-it-all.</p>
<p>I'm not bashing Wash U. I'm pointing out a fact that Wash U's peer review assessment, which makes up a large portion of the US News ranking scale is significantly lower than Cornell's peer review score.</p>
<p>Its a good point. All other factors except peer review assessment can be manipulated and is manipulated by Wash U.</p>
<p>Except for medicine WashU graduate rankings are dismal.</p>
<p>visitor, based on everything I've read about WashU -- you're very wrong!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Except for medicine, Washu's graduate school rankings are dismal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not even remotely true. Posting nasty and inaccurate opinion as though it were fact damages the credibility of the person posting and to an extent, hurts the credibility of the CC forums as well as a source of information. </p>
<p>True, Washu's strongest program is medicine. It's medical school is ranked #3 in the nation, well ahead of top-ranked rivals Cornell (#18), Brown (#31), NW (#20) and Dartmouth (tied at #31). Would the difference between the Washu ranking and say, Brown's, be wide enough to allow someone to describe Brown's program as "dismal?" Hold that thought. </p>
<p>Is every ranking for every other graduate school program at WashU really "dismal." Let's look at the facts. </p>
<p>The law school is ranked #19. It's one of the top 20 programs in the country --- far from "dismal" most would agree. In two specialties, clinical training and trial advocacy, WashU's law school is ranked in the top 10. </p>
<p>The business school (Olin) is #25. Granted that's below Cornell's #14, but to be top 25 in the country is not "dismal" anymore than the gap between Washu's medical school and the schools at Cornell and NW can be construed as ranking those schools rank in the "dismal" range for medicine. </p>
<p>The engineering school at #46 is not stellar, of course, but "dismal" is still grossly inaccurate. Top 50 in the country is nothing to be ashamed of. If that were the case, then Brown and Dartmouth are in the same dismal boat with Engineering School rankings that don't even make the top 50. </p>
<p>The education school is also in the top 50. Ranked #39, just ahead of Cornell at #40. I'm assuming that neither one could be considered "dismal."</p>
<p>In biological sciences, naturally, Washu shines far above the "dismal" level. It is ranked #7 in this area, and in five sub-specialties, it is in the top 10. No one would suggest that because NW, Brown, and Dartmouth score well below the top 10 in these areas that their programs are "dismal."</p>
<p>In political science, WashU has a program ranked #16, ahead of Cornell and NW. In psychology, it is ranked #36 which is tied with Brown, and while below Cornell and NW, I doubt anyone would label a top 50 program as "dismal." If so, then Dartmouth's psych program is in trouble with a #55 rank. </p>
<p>In fine arts (MFA), Washu ranks #15 --- nothing dismal about that. </p>
<p>Graduate programs in occupational therapy and physical therapy are ranked #1 and #2 in the country, and Washu's program in social work also is ranked #1 so no evidence of "dismal" performance there. </p>
<p>Washu has a top 20 graduate program in clinical psychology (#16) and a top #25 program in earth sciences. Chemistry (tied with Duke) and math are in ranked in the 40s --- yes below Cornell --- but still, there's no way that a top-50 in the country program deserves to be described as "dismal." </p>
<p>I don't have any rankings figures on the architectural school, but I know they are high. At least not dismal.</p>
<p>Well stated, Jazzymom!!</p>
<p>Visitor1 is just a flamethrower. Rarely posts anything helpful or productive. And he loves to bash Wash U. Probably didn't get in.</p>
<p>There is a valid point to consider in what he says, but of course he says it very poorly. In many areas, Wash U is highly ranked in grad schools as jazzymom points out (summary list below). But in more traditional liberal arts areas like history, English, math, etc, their ranks are in the 30s. So in terms of being a powerful graduate school, I think the criticism is somewhat valid in comparison to Ivies and U of C. </p>
<p>But the larger question is whether these statistics even matter when considering an undergraduate school. Think about the top LACs, Amherst, Williams, Pomona, etc. They don’t have high grad school rankings either because they generally don’t even have them (exceptions of course). Yet they are still extraordinary teaching colleges for undergraduates.</p>
<p>When people ask me what I like most about Wash U, I tell them that it is a perfect blend of an undergraduate teaching college and a university. It has the best of both worlds, and I believe that is why it is so popular right now. It offers superb preparation for graduate school in any area, and still has many world renowned research programs on campus. </p>
<p>Having big time graduate programs has a limited effect on undergraduate teaching. The hotshot researchers who generate the grad school reputations are rarely, if ever, teaching undergrads anything. There is certainly some trickle down effect, but for the most part I don’t see a correlation. </p>
<p>So if you are looking for a graduate program, then the rankings are helpful. But for undergraduate, I think the point Visitor1 keeps making (he has done it several times) is not relevant.</p>
<p>Rank Area
1 Occupational Therapy
1 Social Work
2 Physical Therapy
3 Medicine
5 Audiology
7 Biology
15 Fine Arts
16 Clinical Psychology
16 Political Science
19 Law
25 Business
25 Earth Sciences</p>
<p>Jazzymom: The difference between the #25 business school and #5 business school is FAR GREATER than the difference between the #3 med school and the #31 med school. Medicine is a different animal. Just getting into ANY top 50 med school is an acheivement. But in law/ business its not true at all. Often the best business firms don't even recruit at schools ranked after #10, and similarly the top law firms stop recruiting around #20.</p>
<p>Also you have to take into account that places like Brown and Dartmouth are essentially super LACs with very few grad students (less than 50 at Dartmouth engineering). While WashhU is a super research university. So essentially Dartmouth's undergrad engineering school is ranked based on mostly undergrad students and it still manages to hold its own against a more research and graduate driven WashU engineering school. </p>
<p>Also WashU might have very talented students but why does it place so poorly at Harvard Law, Yale Law, Wharton, Northwestern Law, Columbia Business, etc? WashU is ranked #41 in terms of an arguably east coast biased graduate school survey, but its so far behind that the gap is way to big to explain. Also why does it not have elite recruiters on campus? Olin's recruiting list looks a lot more like Penn State Shreyer's list than it looks like Columbia, Harvard, or Dartmouth's.</p>
<p>The truth is WashU is a great school on the up and up, but in certain areas it is overranked in my opinion.</p>
<p>You're wrong slipper, most managing directors from Citi, JPMorganChase and Bank of America didn't go to the top 10 business schools, and the are a few from Wash U.
Olin also has great internships in London at the best firms.</p>
<p>Well, imo, one could --- if so inclined --- argue that Dartmouth is "overranked" as well, benefiting mainly from one top-10 grad program, its highly ranked business school, and of course, it's Ivy brand name. Not that I'm inclined to do so at the moment.</p>
<p>You concede the well-known "east coast bias" and then continue to cite the same survey. It's more blah, blah, blah, imo. If it's biased, as acknowledged, then the findings are slanted and they shouldn't be used to smear Washu with charges of mediocrity in the quality of its programs or its students.</p>
<p>East coast bias can't make up for the huge deficit washU faces at america's best grad schools. If the east coast bias is so prevelant, why does WashU lag many lower ranked top 20 schools not on the east coast?</p>
<p>As for business job placement: here's some info on banking. Elite consulting lists are very very similar.</p>
<p>2007</a> list of BB Summer Associate class by colleges | WallStreetOasis.com</p>
<p>Private</a> Equity Firms & Universities: What’s the Relationship? | BankersBall</p>
<p>WashU is a selective school and its reputation is strong as a research university in certain areas as jazzymom has pointed out. But WashU lags its peers when it comes to business and professional grad school placement. I'd personally say its probably in the top 15 schools in the country, but its USNEWS ranking does seem a little too high.</p>
<p>Slipper1234, you made the comment that “The difference between the #25 business school and #5 business school is FAR GREATER than the difference between the #3 med school and the #31 med school. Medicine is a different animal.”</p>
<p>I don’t know whether or not this is a commonly accepted fact. I sort of doubt it is. Either way, medical school is a “different animal.” I am much more concerned that my doctor was trained at a top medical school than anyone I am doing business with.</p>
<p>I often wonder just who these posters are on here. slipper1234 has 6,589 posts. Don't you have a real job? I subscribe to the old adage "opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one". Rankings smankings. Have you ever looked at the profiles of the professors for a given dept/school you are interested in? I guarantee you will see that the professors attended a wide variety of universities (and not all top ranked in the field they are currently teaching) for their undergraduate educations; and now you want to believe that only they can teach the best because they are at teaching at a top ranked school like MIT, Berkeley or wherever? That is just plain stupid.</p>
<p>WashU's UNDERGRAD business school is tied for 12 with Cornell, Emory, Ohio State, UIUC, and U of Wisconsin Madison. MBA ranking is 25. Business Week ranks Olin undergrad as #15.</p>
<p>Carnegie Mellon's undergrad business program is ranked 7 by USNWR, but 22 by Business Week - Rankings don't always make sense.</p>
<p>As for business recruiting, I have many friends from Wash U in investment banking this summer (in NYC), at Goldman, Lehman, JP, Morgan Stanley, and more.</p>
<p>Look at business week's internship survey at <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0228_internship.htm:%5B/url%5D">http://www.businessweek.com/table/08/0228_internship.htm:</a>
[quote]
More and more, employers are hiring through their internship programs, making internships a top priority for students. However, not every school is equally skilled at landing work experiences for their students. No. 34-ranked Northeastern requires student participation in a co-op program—a sort of souped-up internship—virtually guaranteeing that every business major graduates with extensive work experience. Elsewhere, students aren't so lucky.</p>
<p>Internships Rank Overall BW Rank School Students with Internships
1 34 Northeastern
Boston 98.3%
2 6 Michigan
(Ross) Ann Arbor 95.5%
3 15 Washington U.
(Olin) St. Louis 92.9%
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Business Week's rankings I have a feeling are referred to more by employers than USNWR. In any case, that's still a good ranking.</p>
<p>I was reading the full report though, and I was a little disheartened by the recruitment score.</p>