<p>The parents’ estate would be responsible for paying it off. So anything the student might inherit would be reduced. But the student would not otherwise be responsible for the parents’ debts.</p>
<p>However, Federal student loans and parent PLUS loans are forgiven in the event the student dies. I have also read that PLUS loans may be forgiven in the event the parents die.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>They took a gamble and lost.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Do you feel the same way about someone betting on the lottery?</p>
<p>When my parents cosigned my loans, I believe they took the attitude that they assumed they would be paying them and would be pleasantly surprised if they didn’t. That’s a little misleading given that I think they would actually shoot me if I didn’t manage to pay them, by no account am I not fully expected to pay them, but they didn’t just assume they could never be held accountable either as cosigners.</p>
<p>We purposefully chose a loan that releases my parents as cosigners after 2 years of consecutive on-time payments, and I have enough life insurance coverage to cover the debt if I died. I am a little over a year in and should continue to not have any issues making the payments, be it from my income or in an emergency from savings. In a dire emergency I am sure my parents would make whatever payments were necessary to insure that they would be released as cosigners at the 2 year mark as planned, they could afford to do so-- but short of circumstances so dire that my insurance would kick in, I can think of no circumstances in which that could occur. My sister and I are far enough in age that my student loans should have long stopped being their concern by the time they need to worry about my sister’s. And, as it turns out, I don’t think she’s going to college anyway. Certainly not any time within the next year.</p>
<p>My loan amounts most certainly should have been a lot less than they were, because the payment amounts have been a hardship for me though I have always been able to pay them. However, even if I had been much more reasonable, I still would have needed my parents to cosign student loans to finish my bachelors degree after community college no matter which way you slice it, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a horrible thing when handled appropriately. Cosigning something you’ll be on the hook for indefinitely that you can’t afford is stupid, but it doesn’t have to be that way.</p>
<p>“They took a gamble and lost. Do you feel the same way about someone betting on the lottery?”</p>
<p>JC. It’s not even close to the same thing! Do you really not understand that? </p>
<p>"I don’t think people are bashing the Stafford loan situation. People are bashing the idea of co-signing for MORE loans and then no one can pay them back.</p>
<p>It’s those EXTRA loans that are avoidable."</p>
<p>This I understand. I don’t know stafford limits. But sorta feel the same way. Depending on the circumstances, I think 15 - 50K can be reasonable. Although can easily see how someone without aid, parental support, bad luck, and/or a couple mistakes could go over and still not deserve our vitrol. </p>
<p>“by what system…they are only screwing themselves.”</p>
<p>They system that dictates that in order to even have a shot at a job with upwards growth in most industries in America you need a sheepskin. This sheepskin is so expensive that it requires loans for the majority of America’s youth, loans that are more likely than ever to go into default due to the terrible economic conditions and depressed wages. </p>
<p>Not only does our college educational system in America favor the rich and connected but now I learn, from this board, that those who succeed in said system (not only by merit alone) have no compassion towards those for whom things did not work out in the way that they had planned, hoped, and sweated towards.</p>
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</p>
<p>Wrong. The sheepskin that they WANT is often so expensive that it requires loans. Getting a sheepskin period IS NOT so expensive that it requires loans. If that were the case, the average student debt in this country would be considerably more than the mid $20K’s that it currently sits at. That means that for every foolish borrower in the upper 5 figure/low 6 figure realm, there are multiple folks who borrowed much less than $20K…or even nothing.</p>
<p>"by what system…they are only screwing themselves. " - geeps20 </p>
<p>Screwing themselves by trying to better themselves by taking the necessary course of action, in applying for loans, in order to get an education? What IDIOTS!!! What’s wrong with them?!?</p>
<p>“Wrong. The sheepskin that they WANT is often so expensive that it requires loans. Getting a sheepskin period IS NOT so expensive that it requires loans.”</p>
<p>Wrong. Even below average sheepskins require loans for most. Did daddy pay for your college? How much money do you really think high school graduates have? </p>
<p>"If that were the case, the average student debt in this country would be considerably more than the mid $20K’s that it currently sits at. That means that for every foolish borrower in the upper 5 figure/low 6 figure realm, there are multiple folks who borrowed much less than $20K…or even nothing. " </p>
<p>It works both ways wolverine. All the full pay/ride students bring the average down. I also think it’s very very rare for a BA graduate to have borrowed “in the upper 5 figure/low 6 figure realm.” (I believe the 20 K you are referring to is in regards to undergraduate degrees). For every few college students who’s parents paid for everything, there are a few students with loans in the 30’s-50’s. </p>
<p>"there are multiple folks who borrowed much less than $20K…or even nothing. "</p>
<p>Wow! Now if only those students from poorer families could strive to no longer be a burden upon society and borrow…nothing.</p>
<p>Follow the money.</p>
<p>If student loans were dischargable in a bankruptcy maybe, just maybe, lenders would not be so eager in the granting of loans. </p>
<p>And maybe, just maybe, schools would no longer be so eager to spend money and charge higher tuition and fees because they would know their customers can’t get easy loans anymore. </p>
<p>The lending companies, the schools and their admins, profs and staff are indeed the ultimate beneficiaries of the student loan status quo. Why does nobody seem to get this? </p>
<p>Follow the money.</p>
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<br>
<p>Do you understand the risks in trying to finish an undergraduate degree
today and the further odds against finding a good-paying job with an
undergraduate degree?</p>
<p>[Low-wage</a> jobs explosion - Aug. 31, 2012](<a href=“Low-wage jobs explosion”>Low-wage jobs explosion)</p>
<p>Some 58% of the jobs created during the recovery have been low-wage positions, according to a new report by the National Employment Law Project. Only 22% have been mid-wage jobs and 20% higher-wage positions. These low-wage jobs pay $13.83 an hour or less.</p>
<p>“The recovery continues to be skewed toward low-wage jobs, reinforcing the rise in inequality and America’s deficit of good jobs,” said Annette Bernhardt, NELP’s policy co-director. “While there’s understandably a lot of focus on getting employment back to pre-recession levels, the quality of jobs is rapidly emerging as a second front in the struggling recovery.” </p>
<p>[Tough</a> times for college graduates | <a href=“http://www.WHEC.com%5B/url%5D”>www.WHEC.com](<a href=“http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S2595081.shtml?cat=10949]Tough”>http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S2595081.shtml?cat=10949)</a></p>
<p>That’s not the case for every graduate though. A new study shows that 53.6% of bachelor’s degree holders under the age of 25 last year were jobless or underemployed, the highest share in more than 10 years. </p>
<p>[Public</a> universities pushing ‘super-seniors’ to graduate in four years - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/public-universities-pushing-super-seniors-to-the-graduation-stage/2012/06/01/gJQAvbyZ9U_story.html]Public”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/public-universities-pushing-super-seniors-to-the-graduation-stage/2012/06/01/gJQAvbyZ9U_story.html)</p>
<p>Fewer than half of students graduate in four years at 33 of the 50 state flagship schools. The overall four-year graduation rate is 31 percent for public colleges and 52 percent for private ones, the federal government reported this year.</p>
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</p>
<p>No, I paid for my college education by myself. I earned merit scholarships by working my butt off in high school and on standardized tests. In other words, I improved my own pool of possible school choices, and chose the school that allowed me to graduate with…wait for it…NO DEBT!! Imagine that!! Thanks for asking though. It highlights the exact point I made and you ignored.</p>
<p>Our D1 is currently entering sophomore year at an OOS flagship university. She earned merit scholarships by working her butt off in high school and on standardized tests. In other words, she improved her own pool of possible school choices, and chose a school that will allow her to graduate with…wait for it…NO DEBT!! Sensing a trend here?</p>
<p>We sat down with all our kids and explained FINANCIAL REALITY to them. We told them that their college options were to live at home and commute to any CC or university within driving distance because that’s what we could AFFORD. If they worked hard and did well in school, they could improve their own opportunities and choose from any school that fell at or below the cost of living at home and commuting. </p>
<p>It’s called responsible parenting. Teaching your children to stay within their means, make the most of every opportunity they have, and try to excel in whatever situation they find themselves in. Don’t blow sunshine up their skirt and tell them that borrowing more than they can reasonably pay back is “worth it” to attend fill-in-the-blank university when the CC or directional U down the road with little or no debt is the more intelligent option. Most importantly, take responsibility for the choices you make and live with the consequences of those choices.</p>
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<br>
<p>I have lots of friends without degrees that are successful business
owners. I think that they would just laugh at your comments.</p>
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<br>
<p>We weren’t as entitled back in the stone ages. I got my undergraduate
degree in my 30s - school, then work, then school + work. I never had
the on-campus experience - always a commuter. The local McDonalds near
where my son went to school pays $35K for management trainees and
provides tuition reimbursement. I’ve seen kids in their mid-teens and
older interviewing for jobs there - there is clearly a lot of
turnover. If you can stick it out for a while, you’re management
material. The management career path there is into six figures.</p>
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<p>There are a lot of different routes to getting an education. Some
cost a lot less than others. Some approaches take more time and
cost less per year than others.</p>
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<br>
<p>My father didn’t pay for my college (he wasn’t around when I was a
kid). And I was non-traditional as were many others that I worked with
over the years. One previous co-worker got his undergraduate degree
via correspondance school with some university in Canada over a period
of ten years on the cheap. Last I heard, he was a consulting engineer
with Microsoft.</p>
<p>@wolverine: Not everyone can get large/full aid packages like you and your daughter did. Surely you can understand that? Your argument that, “Getting a sheepskin period IS NOT so expensive that it requires loans”, is ridiculous, as for the MAJORITY, a sheepskin does require loans! Also understand, that you can afford more than most if you can afford full pay for any university within driving distance. </p>
<p>@BCEagle: Yes I understand. There is a lot of risk involved, but it still pays off for many, such as myself, by hard work, good major, a little bit of luck, and being smart. And your odds are much better than playing the lottery. But you are absolutely right, things are looking grimm.</p>
<p>@toblin: Are student loans the only loans that are non dischargeable? That’s rough! </p>
<p>I think one reason that politicians are hesitant to put further restrictions on student loans is the American Dream. America is all about how people can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Move from lower to upper class. Work hard and acheive the american dream. </p>
<p>By restricting access to a college education, the perception (true or not) is that you’re taking opportunity away from people who weren’t born with it and promoting a class society. Which makes tinkering with loan policies (even if some tinkering would be a good thing) politically difficult.</p>
<p>“I have lots of friends without degrees that are successful business
owners. I think that they would just laugh at your comments.”</p>
<p>Yes, in the stone age, degrees weren’t necessary. It is a changing landscape my friend. A degree is often required nowadays and does irrefutably open more doors/pathways. </p>
<p>“We weren’t as entitled back in the stone ages.”</p>
<p>Tuition was also MUCH lower then and some argue that the education was better too. </p>
<p>“The local McDonalds near
where my son went to school pays $35K for management trainees and
provides tuition reimbursement. I’ve seen kids in their mid-teens and
older interviewing for jobs there - there is clearly a lot of
turnover. If you can stick it out for a while, you’re management
material. The management career path there is into six figures.”</p>
<p>haha. Very few would get to six figures. Odds are probably much better if you get a degree. They may tout opportunity, but most of those types of store manager type jobs have very low (pay & promotion) ceilings. And sadly, I imagine you also see alot for Bachelor degree holders applying for those positions as well who may be favored for those positions. </p>
<p>"And I was non-traditional as were many others that I worked with
over the years. One previous co-worker got his undergraduate degree
via correspondance school with some university in Canada over a period
of ten years on the cheap. Last I heard, he was a consulting engineer
with Microsoft. "</p>
<p>That’s actually a very neat story. And I agree, students should look into more non-traditional means of getting an education/moving on up.</p>
<p>* as for the MAJORITY, a sheepskin does require loans! *</p>
<p>I don’t know if that’s true. it may be, but I don’t know if it is. It’s certainly not true that the majority must have co-signed loans…absolutely not. </p>
<p>There are many states with low CC costs and low state school costs. Commuting from home and paying with summer earnings, part-time work during the school year, and family funds may be the way that many avoid any loans at all.</p>
<p>That said, those who do take out some SMALL fed student loans aren’t the target of this thread’s discussion. </p>
<p>When we read the threads about co-signed loans, nearly every single one concerned a student who could have chosen cheaper options. The co-signed loans are taken so as to have a LUXURY choice. </p>
<p>If people borrowed large amounts of money to pay for K-12, we’d think they were nutty since K-12 can be free in this country. It can be just as nutty to borrow lots of money for undergrad when there are lower cost options…even if those options mean delaying education for a few years and then moving to a state with low cost public univs or starting at a CC.</p>
<p>I imagine that those who start at CCs and then transfer rarely work and save during those first two years to minimize the cost for the last 2 years. I’m not saying that none do, but it’s more likely that they aren’t doing that.</p>
<p>Whatdidyou…It basically boils down to choices. With the number of CCs, small universities, directionals, etc. in this country nearly every student in this country would have access to some form of higher education near where they live. Would it stink if that were the only affordable option those students had? Sure, but they still have that option. Even the lowest income family can, with a full Pell of $5500, afford tuition and books at a huge number of CCs around the country, often with some money to spare. In an earlier post in this thread, I referenced our nearby CC which charges $3300-ish for tuition/books. Some will be more, some will be less. My point is, just because that may not be the college option you WANT it is the affordable college option that is available to you. Get the most marketable degree you can, and start to make a life for yourself with it. You still refuse to make that differentiation between necessities and niceties. If you’re trying to claim that someone needs to attend a 4-year university while living on campus in order to be successful, you’re fooling yourself and overlooking the accomplishments of every graduate of CCs/locals/directionals/non-traditional routes that have done just that.</p>
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</p>
<p>Not full pay…not even close. Tuition and books while living at home. Sound familiar? I’ll pass along to Mrs. Wolverine how “well” you think we’re doing compared to most. She’ll get a good chuckle out of it.</p>
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</p>
<p>No. The average amount of student debt of the 65.6% of 4 year grads who graduated with loans was $25,250 (using NY Times figures).</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/education/average-student-loan-debt-grew-by-5-percent-in-2010.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/education/average-student-loan-debt-grew-by-5-percent-in-2010.html</a></p>
<p>Those students without loans aren’t counted in that $25K figure.</p>
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<br>
<p>Well, you’re stating that hard work, a good major, some luck and being smart are required. And even then it may not be enough. You might get a decent offer for a company but you might have to move to a major metro area like Boston or New York City or San Francisco to take advantage of it and taxes and living expenses could eat up a good chunk of your salary.</p>
<p>We know that about half aren’t winning on the good jobs front and that companies can be incredibly picky right now looking for that perfect candidate. I’ve seen our son looking for work with a near-perfect resume and how many interviews it took to get an offer. I’ve seen children of co-workers from great schools struggle to find work - in some cases finding it after some time, sometimes starting graduate school and then finding work, or sometimes finding jobs that are truly iffy.</p>
<p>Clearly, the chart below shows the disturbing trend of more and more retirees getting their Social Security payments garnished and the later statistics that there are about 2.2 million with student loan over 60 indicates that there are a lot of kids for which the gamble isn’t paying off.</p>
<p>Number of retirees who had at least on Social Security payment reduced because they fell behind on student loans. Source: Department of the Treasury’s Financial Management Service.</p>
<p><a href=“http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/M6wQFnZsgB5PHqeXSAAbMg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTUwNA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/284/2012/08/07/OB-UB327-smreti-NS-20120806171257-gif_152501.gif[/url]”>http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/M6wQFnZsgB5PHqeXSAAbMg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTUwNA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/284/2012/08/07/OB-UB327-smreti-NS-20120806171257-gif_152501.gif</a></p>
<p>“Roughly 2.2 million student-loan debtors were 60 and older during the first quarter of 2012, and nearly 10% of their loans were 90 days or more past due, up from 6% during the first quarter of 2005, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. “It’s really a unique problem we haven’t had to face before, and it’s only going to grow,” says Robert Applebaum, founder of Student Debt Crisis, a nonprofit advocacy group in Staten Island, N.Y.”</p>
<p>[Grandma’s</a> New Financial Problem: College Debt - Yahoo! Finance](<a href=“http://finance.yahoo.com/news/grandma-s-new-financial-problem--college-debt.html?page=all]Grandma’s”>http://finance.yahoo.com/news/grandma-s-new-financial-problem--college-debt.html?page=all)</p>
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<p>Funny that you should say that. One owns a landscaping business. You don’t need a degree
to run the business nor do you need a degree to get a job there.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>We didn’t expect to get our degrees paid for and we didn’t (well, I didn’t) go crazy on
loans because we felt that we deserved a degree or that it was an absolute need to be
successful.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>How many with recent college degrees are getting six figures? And they
had to pay for college for four years and lose the opportunity cost of
four years.</p>
<p>The person favored for retail management positions typically have
retail experience. Would you hire someone that felt overqualified but
otherwise desperate for a job?</p>
<hr>
<p>There are tuition tax credits of up to $2,500/year which can cover
complete schooling costs for CC in at least California and help to defray
about 50% of costs in areas where CC is expensive. This tax break will be
going away with the Fiscal Cliff though the much-less-generous Hope Credit
will be available.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>“The report listed the colleges where the class of 2010 had the highest average debt, cautioning, however, that since not every college reported its data, there may be others where the figures are higher. Of those in the report, the top two were the Cleveland Institute of Art, where the average debt was $55,231 and 82 percent of the students had loans, and Eastern Nazarene College, where the average was $51,336, and 87 percent had loans.”</p>
<p>Ooooouuuuuuucccccccchhhhhhh!</p>
<p>@Wolverine: By fullpay, I meant tuition & fees. If you can afford to pay full tuition and fees for any nearby 4 year university, you can afford more than many, if not most. </p>
<p>You are talking in circles. I’ve already discussed the community college route as well as going to a Public university. You’re choosing to ignore that I’ve already addressed the “difference between neccisities and niceties”. Go back and read my prior post. </p>
<p>@ellemenope:From the same article you linked to: "“We’re clearly heading in the direction of decreased college affordability. Among lower-income students, the canaries in the cage that squawk first, we’re already seeing a decline in enrollment in four-year colleges and an increase in lower-cost two-year institutions,” he said. </p>
<p>Mr. Kantrowitz estimated that for the class of 2011, average debt was $27,200 — or, if parent loans were included, $34,000."</p>
<p>And you can bet it saw another ~2,000 increase for 2012 at least (you quoted the 2010 figures). Besides, I’m not sure how much a single number really tells us and don’t really want to research it. It’s also brought down by students who had ALOT of help from their parents and took on very minimal loans for living/partying expenses. Remember that number is an average, which means approximately half of graduates took out more than that. </p>
<p>@mom2collegekids: You make good points. I agree for the most part. However, I think many of the people on this thread have a problem with large loan takers in general and not just loans on top of that. I’m addressing them. I went the community college route, saved money to subsidize my next two years of education. I know it can work and have encouraged numerous others on this board to take that route. However, it can be tough, if you can’t get a steady job that works you enough while you’re going to school (it CAN be quite difficult), or don’t get any help from your family. I still graduated with loans - minimal compared to many, but enough to create problems if I didn’t get a decent job afterwards. But I agree, many are irresponsible with some of their choices.</p>
<p>@BCEagle: Lol. Based off of those school names and numbers alone, perhaps those were some of the irresponsible decision makers I was discussing earlier?</p>
<p>I checked distance learning costs at Canadian universities. About $200/credit hour for non-citizens and about $150/credit hour for citizens (this was in Alberta - the rates vary by Province). Those prices are comparable to in-state CC rates in higher-priced states but you get them for all four years, not just the first two. It doesn’t look like there are any penalties in not finishing in four years so you can go at your pace in terms of the time you have available for study along with the amount of money that you have available for study and you can work while you are doing so. You don’t have transportation time and costs to deal with either.</p>
<p>You just have to be diligent in doing the work when you don’t have a professor in a classroom telling you what has to be done for the next class.</p>
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<br>
<p>It’s easy to chuckle so I had a look at them. The first sounds like a serious art school but how much can you earn in the current environment to pay off those loans?</p>
<p>The second has serious programs (I checked out their BS in Math program) and they claim that they have had graduates go on to Harvard and Yale. That school is located not too far from me in Boston. I would hope that a religious institution wouldn’t saddle their students with a lot of debt given all of the admonitions against debt but that’s a pipe dream these days - it’s all about the $$$$.</p>
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