Agree. This chart here is a bit dated, but useful. WashU first time med school acceptance rates by GPA and MCAT percentile. All of these students are in the College of Arts and Sciences but not all of them utilized the pre-health advising system. And as was noted earlier, WashU doesn’t perform gatekeeping to prevent less qualified undergrad applicants from applying to med school.
https://m.box.com/shared_item/https%3A%2F%2Fwustl.box.com%2Fs%2F1jp60uqzhcxte4xybktahqo3jl77y0dc
Great chart, but also a bit disturbing considering those with low qualifications who were admitted to US medical schools.
I think you’d be surprised by some of the stories behind some of those low stats admissions. Students with steep improvements because they came in with a HS science background that wasn’t as good as they thought it was. People with some significant family obligations/caregiving that got in the way of their studies. Previously undiagnosed mental or physical health issues that get identified and successfully treated at school. Substantial maturity gains after a bad first year. The dire need for URM physicians. Wildly different med school standards. There is a lot that can be explained with an objective assessment from faculty, not applying right out of undergrad and sticking around as a lab assistant/TA, etc. Med students need academic fluency to function in medical school, but frankly what GPAs and MCATs measure at the undergrad level doesn’t translate well into becoming a good physician. Some med schools are going to be less selective based upon their needs and curriculum. If the coursework is system-based, then things are highly sequential. You can’t take as much of a chance on someone with lower academic stats because if you bomb a class, the sequential nature sets you back an entire year to retake. Some schools aren’t built that way though.
There is a lot of selection bias in those numbers, ie, if you have a 3.00 in core pre-med courses and a 500 MCAT (average), and you’re applying, then you probably have a pretty compelling story to tell with a lot of support.
Thank you for your thorough response. Nevertheless, I still find it disturbing. I prefer that doctors & engineers have top qualifications.
Doctors do. Medical school acceptance is but one hurdle. There is still medical school completion, res/fellowship matching, res/fellowship completion, boards and state licensure. 80% of the acceptees on that chart have at least a 3.4 from a rigorous a selective pre-med program and a 60th percentile MCAT.
They and the other 20% still have a bunch of hurdles between them and physician practice. I’d be more worried about the neurosurgeon with a God complex who likes to do bumps of coke to “stay focused” and unwinds after a shift at the strip club. Yes, they exist.
Well, while the chart may have some use, it doesn’t address OP’s concern(and the concern stated here very often): how many pre-meds get into medical school. The chart, for better or worse(and it is pretty dated) indicates who applied and who got in, with what GPA/MCAT.
Wash U doesn’t supply-no college does-how many freshmen started as pre-med. And there are a lot of reasons for that, starting with fact that there’s no agreed definition of “pre-med”.
So OP would do well to find a school at which s/he is comfortable, as students who are happy to be where they are tend to do better.
Regarding medical school graduation rates(2020 most recent year available, data years earlier):
https://www.aamc.org/media/48526/download
Six year: almost 96% graduated
Four year: 82-84%
So not much of a hurdle for the vast majority of matriculants.
Even if you had this information for each university, I am not sure that it would be useful.
Harvard gets a higher percentage of its undergrads into medical school that U.Mass Amherst. However, most (maybe all?) of this is because of the students who arrive as freshmen at Harvard. The issue is not whether an average Harvard freshman is more likely to get to medical school than an average U.Mass freshman. The issue is whether any one student who is capable of being accepted to both schools would have a higher chance one way or the other.
Clearly WUSTL and Carleton are both very good universities. Both will prepare a student well. So are at least 100 other universities, and probably more like 200 other universities.
Probably affordability, fit, and opportunities to get experience in a medical environment are key. The last of these (medical experience) can be gotten either as an undergrad student or after getting a bachelor’s and before applying to medical schools.
I may have missed it, but did not notice a discussion of affordability, nor a mention of OP’s home state.
Would disagree with:
“Even if you had this information for each university, I am not sure that it would be useful.”
A question that no one can answer but which is often asked: Does College X weed-out a lot of pre-meds? If a very low % of freshmen pre-meds actually ended up applying to medical school, it would be reasonable to deduce that yes, that university weeds-out a lot of its pre-med students. But there are no schools-none that come to mind-which actually disclose that x started freshman year and y actually ended up applying(let alone getting accepted at and attending medical school).
Fair enough. 363 WashU undergrads matriculated into medical schools fall 2020 (about 20% of the entering class). There is some difficulty in determining who is premed at the start. Knowing the curriculum, Gen Chem isn’t a good benchmark because it includes too many non-premeds and it really isn’t the place where the rubber meets the road wrt pre-med attrition. Bio 1 has the same issues. Orgo/o-Chem is that point. Attrition is nearly zero until orgo. At the very least, an orgo class is still 20% non-pre med. There is still a lot of bench research/PhDs in Chem/bio/biochem, chemical engineer, biomedical engineer, PNP, etc.
There were 521 orgo seats filled across the entire 2017-18 calendar at WashU, which is when those matriculants would have taken orgo. That would double count people who took it twice but exclude those who took it outside of WashU. Those two likely net to about zero. So 420 pre-meds or 20-25% of that freshman class, which is pretty much where I’d expect it to be and my experience.
420 pre-med orgo enrollees to 363 allopathic medicine matriculants. There is not a lot of attrition. Some folks also go the DO route. Some don’t get into med school period. Some drop. This is still an estimate. But it’s probably the best math you can get. Even if I’m off by a fair amount, ie, 90% of orgo enrollees are pre-med, the dropout narrative is vastly overstated.
“There is some difficulty in determining who is premed at the start.”
And that, or course, is the problem; everything else-all of it-is supposition; there’s no way you can know that “the dropout narrative is vastly overstated” as there is no data, pro or con, to support this assertion.
It’s also interesting to note that under WashU’s pre-health advising there’s a section labeled “pre-med” but it doesn’t define who or what a “pre-med” is.
There’s no doubt that both Wash U and Carleton are fine schools, both of which offer pre-med courses and prepare their interested students for further study in medicine. But OP is interested in "weed-out’ information which does not exist. OP states s/he is “intimidated” by Wash U and likes the “small, friendly feel” of Carleton. Based on that Carleton is the better choice.
I’d strongly advise OP to review Carleton’s pre-health page, where the following is posted:
“Carleton supports all of the students and alumni who decide to apply, regardless of GPA and MCAT score, and our acceptance rate for the past 5 year period is 82%. Approximately 77% of the accepted students/alumni are accepted on the first try. For those applicants who earned a GPA of 3.5 or better and an MCAT score at or above the 79th percentile (a 30 on the old MCAT or a 508 on the new MCAT), the acceptance rate for the same time period is 90%.”
Again, no data anywhere on how many started as pre-meds but never applied to medical school, but the numbers posted would be tough to top. That said, unless and until everyone agrees on a definition of who is a pre-med, it would be unwise to rely on medical school acceptance numbers posted by any UG institution.
This thread made me smile because the final decision came down to WashU or Carleton for my DD20 as well.
She chose WashU, so I can only speak to that experience (and she’s an engineer not pre-med), but I have been impressed with the level of academic support that is built into their entry level courses. Optional but highly encouraged Peer-Led Team Learning sessions (you actually receive academic credit for participating in small group review sessions with an upperclassman outside of regular class hours) seem designed not only to get kids through the early traditionally-weed-out courses but also to teach students who have always been highly successful how to access and utilize university support systems if and when things get tough. I have seen no evidence of intimidation – I really get the sense that they want the kids to succeed and they’ve put a lot of supports in place to help them help themselves. (And for what it’s worth, her professors in her major absolutely know her name and she has formed great relationships with them… Carleton is a super friendly and special place, but it’s not like you can’t make great personal connections at WashU!)
I believe that 363 number includes not just 2020 graduating seniors, but all washu undergrads matriculating this cycle, some of whom went to Post Bacc or SMP programs, or just took time to work before applying to med school.
I’m an Illinois resident and U.S. citizen. I appreciate all of your advice and the excellent point about the high expense of WashU. My parents don’t want cost to be the deciding factor in my decision, but of course I don’t want to plague them or myself with a looming cloud of expense. Unfortunately, both these two schools I’ve fallen in love with (or think I have) are expensive. Yet I think I’d be regretful going someplace else, just because of scholarship money.
And I really like your last point! I’ve heard that; that some places with supposedly excellent professors still have ones that just can’t teach, and life-changing mentors can be found everywhere. Carleton is rated #1 for undergraduate teaching, though ratings always come with a grain of salt.
Thank you so much! I appreciate your encouragement and confidence in me. I still imagine that many of the successful premed students at WashU are quite bright and quick of mind. I’m a slower learner and have a weak background in chemistry and physics, but I do love learning; I hope I can learn resilience through allegedly despairing Gen Chem test grades. Do you know if WashU
I’ve heard that WashU is collaborative, but nevertheless, very challenging. Even if students support each other and students study very hard, don’t some still fail and drop off the premed path, essentially getting “weeded out” of the grueling career path?
I hope I’m not overthinking, thanks again for all your help! Same to everyone!
Thanks! Good points there. Hm not even quite sure. I guess that I’ve always been a bit of a Minnesota girl at heart and I like what I’ve heard about the Carleton community. Further, I think I’d try running XC there! Talking to an alumn runner and student there, I loved what I heard: a welcoming team regardless of level, yet still a very good team. Further, the practices are in the morning which should give me free afternoons to study and go to office hours. I also am interested in Carleton’s trimester system, though I don’t have experience with it to really say if it’s advantageous.
WashU (and Carleton) seem like friendly communities with collaborative and diverse students. That being said, so are many colleges, but I like the settings of these, too. Other target/reach schools for me felt a bit off, though it’s hard to place why. Williams is a bit isolated, Bowdoin felt less warm and friendly than Carleton, Tufts was a bit too radical for me, and all these places are just…FAR. Distance is a factor for me as well. Wheaton college is on my list, also, but it’s a bit too close for me and I wanted to try a setting other than the rich suburban one I’m used to.
Thanks! it’s so fun to have a Carleton alumn comment on my feed! How did you favor the trimester system, out of curiosity?
All of your thoughts were so helpful and thought-provoking and encouraging, but this really resonated with me. Thank you.
To be honest, sometimes during an especially good Science Friday episode, I get inspired by the idea of research…especially on something like honeybees! WashU’s beekeeping club is a little bit of a puller, too, for me, ha ha.
Thank you!
Thank you everyone who’s commented and been so helpful!
I’m an Illinois resident so have factored in distance as well. Both these schools seem appealed in their relative proximity as well. I’m fortunate to have parents who want my ultimate well-being, not pushing me to go to a highly selective school, nor necessarily one that I choose just because of cost. But of course I am realizing that these two institutions I seem to really like both are quite expensive.
I understand, now more than ever, that my wording of “weed-out WashU” was quite an overstatement, if not completely inaccurate one. But I still do fear my ability to get good grades. Maybe a little bit of failure is part of the learning experience.
***side note: Not to complicate this further but part of my decision will be over whether or not I want to run in college as well. I could do so at Carleton because it is a no-cut D3 school, while WashU recruits athletes of certain times. I’ve emailed both coaches. I like the idea of having structured workouts in my schedule but also do worry about the extra stress and exhaustion.
****I certainly have MANY (beyond these two, of course) good options for education and potential career.
I appreciate everyone’s input into that choice, though; into my future path!! ****** 