<p>I want to get some feedback about these weeder courses. Do you think it's necessay to have one course, known as a weeder course, to weed out the low-from-the-top students? What if the student takes this weeder course in the first semester of his freshman year, is there a difference?</p>
<p>I definitely agree that certain course combinations are necessary to weed out the stronger students. All pre-med students, for instance, better be able to succeed in a regular Chem course. But what about others?</p>
<p>My son wants to be in a marketing program at his college; that's why he's attending there. But the weeder course that is necessary to get in, Calculus, has to be at B or higher to be admittted. Do you think it's fair (oh how I hate to use that term!) to a freshman to take this course? (He had been acing his quizzes, until he got one bad grade. Then he took the final and got C. so that's it.)</p>
<p>If you oppose these courses, what other suggestions do you have?</p>
<p>I think it is reasonable to have the course if it is actually needed to see if the student is capable of performing the upper division work. When I started on a physics program they made all the physics majors take the freshman physics for physics majors. It was somewhat more specialized and rigorous than even the normal physics course. I thought it was extremely hard and wondered why it was necessary until I got into upper division E&M, Mechanics, and Quantum Mechanics, which was simply impossible. (Although I managed to finish somehow). I was glad I took, and squeaked by in the freshman class. I dont think they ever actually forced anybody out by the class most people who left did so of their own volition after giving it a shot.</p>
<p>I only took a very rudimentary marketing course in grad school, so Im not sure how much calculus is needed for Marketing. If they are going to use a course to weed kids out I think it should at least be relevant to the major.</p>
<p>I’m guessing many schools have these courses, they just don’t call them that until recently. (also known as gatekeepers) The concept though worries me, because I think there’s too much stress on campuses already. </p>
<p>Many of these new programs have been developed as some kind of a response to a trend, and colleges love to talk them up. But then they discover too many students want to get in, so aside from college admissions, they have to limit them somehow. With supply low and demand up, the students loose out. It’s also another way the colleges sound elitists: limiting their top programs to only certain students.</p>
<p>Back in the day, oh so long ago, all business majors had to take calculus, but it was business calculus as opposed to calculus for engineers. It wasn’t considered a weeder class back then as it wasn’t all that difficult (well considering I started out engineering, took all the engineering math then switched to business). What I hear now from current business majors is the weeder class is Econ, particularly the second semester course.</p>
<p>DD is currently a college senior with many friends who started out with med school intent only to fall by the wayside and change their major after the first two chemistry classes. Those classes are considered the weeder classes for those pursuing science majors.</p>
<p>I don’t see a problem with weeder courses if they are relevant to the major and indicative of what’s to come in upper division work in that major. I think it’s better than letting everyone go forth only to come to the same conclusion that they need to change their major after they struggle in upper level courses.</p>
<p>I actually think it’s a good idea. When I started my college career, I had planned to go to medical school. The school I attended didn’t have a specific track for pre-med, but you could complete all the necessary requirements to get into med school. One of the classes I took was known as “the class” that would determine if you could handle the workload in med school. In fact, the first day of class, the professor said that he teaches the class as close as possible to how med school classes are taught. It was very fast paced and you had to learn tons of material in a very short amount of time. </p>
<p>I think they are useful because you get an idea about how challenging the rest of your coursework is going to be early on, rather than discovering that further down the line when it will be difficult to change majors without adding another year or two.</p>
<p>A lot of schools have impacted majors which require students to have a certain (high) GPA or a threshold grade in certain classes. I don’t like it–especially in this case where you have to get a B in Calculus to get into a marketing program. Criminy…when was the last time someone in marketing needed to use his or her calculus?! </p>
<p>His only option is to retake the class and get the required grade.</p>
<p>In my day, there were certain classes that were weeder classes in that they were very difficult and if you couldn’t hack that class, you really had to re-think your future plans…for example, if you couldn’t hack organic chem, pre-med was not for you; if you couldn’t do well in the 1 year calculus classes, you might want to re-think being an engineer. There were no gatekeeper classes–get a B in this class or you can’t major in X.</p>
<p>But now I hear that the business majors at my college are “impacted” and you have to have a great GPA and fill out an application to be accepted into the program your junior year. Bummer…</p>
<p>My major (Film, which is very popular and very good at Wes) has weeder courses (you need a B+ in two intro classes, and a B overall GPA). The courses are pretty intense, and definitely introduce you to what you’d be doing as an upperclassman, but they also aren’t impossible to do well in, as long as one works hard and seeks help when needed.</p>
<p>But you also have the chance to “arbitrate” in – if you don’t make one of the requirements you can apply for the major and try to convince them you are serious about it and able to do the work (most people who succeed at arbitrating do so because they’ve taken another film class that’s open to non-majors and did well). </p>
<p>That way, someone who gets in over their head freshmen year has a chance to prove themselves anyway, but it takes a lot of work – which it should. The major is really tough and work intensive, and the type of analysis one does is not like in other humanities, so if you don’t prove you cna hack it in the intro classes, you need to prove it another way.</p>
<p>I like this system better than having EVERYTHING rest on the grade you get in one class. It has the same effect of making sure that the people in the major are committed to it and able to handle the work, but it doesn’t totally condemn you if you don 't get it right away.</p>
<p>The College of Business where I went to school has also gone to a system where you have to have a certain GPA and at least sophomore status to apply to the college. Everything’s so much more complicated now but I guess it’s partly due to higher expectations and more competition for high achieving students - raising the bar.</p>
<p>You have the opportunity to retake the class to try to get the grade you need so it doesn’t completely shut someone out if they’re determined to go into a certain field. Those who aren’t so determined change their major.</p>
<p>Not so different from foreign language gen ed requirements or even grad school courses where you have to get a B to move on. DD is taking an upper level stats class with mostly 1st/2nd year grad students. There is one grad student who is taking the class for the 3rd and final chance to make the B and continue in the program. It happens.</p>
<p>I think these courses are exceptionally beneficial to the student, since they often teach/test the basic skills needed to succeed in UD courses in the major. If a student truly can’t cut it, absent extraneous circumstances, I think it serves the student best to choose another major. I do, however, think there should be some flexibility both in when the student must take the course (perhaps choice of 1st or 2nd semester understanding it can take time to adapt to college life) and whether the student is allowed to repeat the course in summer session or the next semester.</p>
<p>Computer Science majors often face some weeder courses. The advantage (which most of them wouldn’t consider an advantage at the time) is that they can ‘help’ the student determine if this is really the major they want to pursue and allows them an opportunity to switch into another major while still early in their college career. At some of the colleges roughly 30-40% of those who thought they’d want to be a CS major end up changing their minds and switching to something else - many times ‘thanks’ to the weeder courses. Those who stick with the major will understand the level of effort that will be necessary to successfully complete the major and will be more certain that they really want to be in the major before committing too much time to it to easily or inexpensively switch out. The weeder courses are also a way for the college to ‘bump-up’ the level of those graduating in the major.</p>
<p>It’s frustrating for the students (and the parents) but it’s better to find out sooner rather than later whether one wants to stick with a particular major or not, especially when it’s a major that will require a lot of effort as well as a certain capability for the work (i.e. math, science, logic, etc.).</p>
<p>I have no issue with weeder courses that are intended to weed out students who simply will not be able to handle the upper level classes in that subject area/major. I do have an issue with weeder classes designed to limit the number of people in an impacted major (I see that in a lot of the business programs we’ve looked at). If the major is that popular, hire some new faculty and open up more sections.</p>
<p>Biggest weeder courses I know of…Organic Chemistry and Differential Equations. I know a number of folks who switched majors after one term of barely passing OChem and who dropped diffy Q before they failed it. </p>
<p>Most majors have some kind of criteria for continuing in the major. Back in the days of the dinos, my major (speech pathology)…if your undergrad GPA dropped below 3.0, you were politely asked to leave the major.</p>
<p>Despite the huge the disappointment associated with not doing well, I think weeder classes are an excellent way to get kids interested in different tracks early on in the process before they get so far into a major they can’t redirect without it costing them more time and money to finish their degree. So if son is currently taking “cell hell” and doing well, he’ll continue. He has a friend at another University however that decided he could do the work but didn’t want to spend so much time doing it and has changed his areas of interest for next quarter. And I hear what you’re saying about Organic Chem and is why I think the earlier that happens, the better. It kind of bugs me that I don’t think S takes that until at least three other science classes/labs are completed. As it is though, most weeder classes are full of first years, and so technically, they’re all at an equal disadvantage (if we’re suggesting that the adjustment of college can be a hump to get over in addition to the academics). </p>
<p>We all know that there are classes for non-majors which let you dip a toe or elbow into those particular intellectual pool of thought, but it isn’t meant to be their future. Why encourage those classes (maths and sciences come to mind) and think those much more rigorous are somehow not kosher (in lieu of “fair”)?</p>
<p>So I am thinking, in this case, the question is more why Calculus for a marketing major? Well, I can imagine that if it’s a comprehensive program there’d be at least one finance class that would require complicated math and formulas.</p>
<p>I agree with this. When I was in school the ‘weed-out’ course for accounting was intermediate accounting. You didn’t take it until late soph. or early Jr. year. It was early enough in the curriculum that you could switch majors but far enough along that you had time to adjust to college life and think about what you wanted to major in.</p>
<p>I took it in the summer, barely passed but had the opportunity to retake it, did well and graduated with an accounting degree and a 3.5 GPA. IMHO, these courses are beneficial because a lot of kids think they want to major in something until the rubber meets the road. Suddenly, it’s not as appealing. Accounting use to be like that (don’t know about now). A lot of business majors like the thought of accounting until they see what it’s really like. I can see the benefit of having this type of course in many majors.</p>
<p>OTOH - I don’t see what Calculus has to do with a marketing program and freshman yr seems too early to start weeding kids out of a program. I wonder it it’s a wildly popular program at the OP’s son’s college, with too many kids trying to get in, so they have to set the bar very high.</p>
<p>I do not think that first years are all at an equal disadvantage, since high school preparation for these classes varies widely even at the most competitive schools, especially if taking AP credit is discouraged. I remember taking freshman calculus right after taking pre-calc among students who had mostly already had high school calculus, and I do not think that I was less suited to study higher level math because my initial test scores were low.</p>
<p>Unless I’m very much mistaken, colleges don’t intentionally have “weeder courses”. It’s just that certain majors tend to attract large numbers of students, some of whom don’t really belong. Marketing, for example, tends to attract a lot of kids who don’t really know what it’s all about; they just think it’s cool to say you’re in marketing. Then they find out that some of the required classes (e.g., calculus) require really hard work and high-level thinking, and suddenly marketing doesn’t seem so glamorous anymore. Next thing you know, everyone is saying that calculus is a weeder courses, because that happens to be the course that made them rethink their interest in marketing.</p>
<p>I think this is borne out by the fact that unpopular majors tend not to have “weeder courses”. I’ve never heard of a weeder course in philosophy or French literature, and I believe that’s because no one pursues those subjects unless they really care about them and are therefore willing to work hard at them. Hence, there’s no mass failing out, and so no particular course ends up with the undeserved reputation as a weeder course.</p>
<p>Requiring a B in calculus seems to be setting the bar pretty high. So why not set the bar at a “C” in calculus? A C means that you passed the class. For those who can’t handle high level, quantitative thinking, struggling in calculus could make them move on to another major. </p>
<p>I did a quick look at the business department, marketing management emphasis program at my alma mater.</p>
<p>Requirements:</p>
<p>The premanagement core [which includes one semester of calculus and one semester of statistics] must be completed with at least a 3.0 GPA (with no grade lower than a C-), and with no more than one repeat for each class. Students must also have an overall GPA of 3.0 and are warned that not every student meeting the minimum requirement is guaranteed acceptance into the undergrad program.</p>
<p>I’m with Beth’s Mom - I don’t mind hard courses that make sure you are suited to the major. Mathson worked his butt off in some of his first computer science courses, and the work is still hard and time consuming. I want my engineers to be comfortable using calculus and my doctor’s to be comfortable with a variety of biology and chemistry courses. But I see no point in courses where bad grades are given in order to limit the size of the major. There are other ways to do that - lotteries or an application system to name two. I had to apply to my major at Harvard - in fact I applied to two different ones and was accepted by one and rejected (rightfully so I might add!) by the other.</p>
<p>It wasn’t required for a French major at Harvard, but there was one teacher who l liked very much, but never took her courses because there was no way I was going to be able to do the reading she required - for the Proust course it was an entire novel each and every week.</p>