<p>There are some subjects that are notorious "weeder" or "gatekeeper" courses, meant to thin the herd of premed students -- I'm thinking of calculus and organic chemistry, but there may be others. Then there are kids with other goals that have to get through those courses -- calculus for a business major, or maybe organic chemistry for an athletic trainer. When you have those other goals, is there a way to find the non-weeder versions of the courses? Non-weeder, to me, would mean a course in which the instructor's goal would be to teach everybody the material, and to score the tests on a more criterion-referenced basis, where if everybody did OK with the material, everybody would pass.</p>
<p>If someone needs the first year of college physics, for the same reason, does that tend to present the same issues?</p>
<p>What if you are taking those courses at a community college, in preparation for a transfer to a four-year school? (I would assume that the kids who start as freshmen at the four-year school would have a math department that knew the difference, and might offer a specific course of calculus for business majors, for example.) Any insights appreciated.</p>
<p>In the old days of paper-based add/drop, it was not uncommon to register for 3 or 4 sections of the same class during the hectic add/drop period if the instructor names were not known ahead of time. So, literally (1982) we’d fill out 3-4 add forms for different sections of the same class (different but unknown profs, or various ‘easier’ profs and hope we get in). The system worked very well, to the extent that I even wrote a computer program to generate all possible schedules given a couple of such classes and the rest ‘fixed’ (brute force combinatorics).</p>
<p>In my experience, the difference between an ‘easier’ prof and a ‘hard’ prof was easily 1-2 letter grades, teaching the same material off the same book. You might learn more from the harder prof, but when taking 18-21 credits a semester it’s kind of hard to be a hero.</p>
<p>We finally saw computer based add/drop by 1984 or so and this did not work any more but I was in grad school by then :)</p>
<p>Other ways to have an easier time were (still are) Community College and evening/adult ed classes.</p>
<p>We are doing AP Calculus this year and I expect my daughter will do well, but she will take Calculus I in college (as suggested by the engineering department). We didn’t HAVE to take AP Calculus this year, but I had her do it - just for the purpose you are talking about. Taking it twice, basically - so that the “weeder” course won’t be quite as tough.</p>
<p>You…or your student, can go to some of the Professor ratings websites. Both my S’s used those to help choose classes. They used Rate My Prof. Their results were generally good. If there’s only one or two comments it might not be reliable but if a prof. has twenty reviews that lean one way or another, it’s prob. a good bet.</p>
<p>S1 took AP Calc (AB) in h.s. but signed up for Calc. 1 freshman yr. for a refresher. Got a foreign prof. that he couldn’t understand,failed quizzes. His advisor told him to drop it since he already had AP credit. S1 signed up for Calc. II the next sem, had a good prof., made a B and moved on.</p>
<p>It is amazing the difference the professor can make. I’m not looking for anything to be handed to her, but seeking a fair shot at learning the material and being credited with having done so. This is a student who will be getting through HS with Algebra 3 in 12th grade (which is glorified Algebra 2). The sequence in our district would be regular Algebra 2, precalc, calc, and then AP calc. So this student is well behind the sequence of people who should be taking calculus in college freshman year.</p>
<p>This student is not innately strong in math, so heroic plans to leapfrog ahead in the summer are not being made.</p>
<p>I see now (just from this thread, and thinking about it) that if the student wants to pursue a bachelor’s degree requiring calculus, it may not be feasible to jump into the full-time four year sequence immediately after HS graduation. If the calculus is not a prerequisite to coursework in the major, and can be postponed until junior year of college, she could take college algebra, college precalculus, and then the calculus. But if one must get through college calculus in freshman year as a prerequisite to starting sophomore year work in the major, and she is fully committed to this major, then she would probably needs to spend some time at community college, essentially to make herself into more advanced of a math student, before jumping into the program where college calculus is assumed to be a freshman endeavor. </p>
<p>DD1 did just that, taking a course that she had tested/SAT’d out. She was promptly blown away by the quality difference between HS teachers and Flagship College profs. DD1 did exceedingly well there, then took a semester of Calc there and one in our CC.</p>
<p>One suggestion - enroll in a class that requires tons and tons of online homework. Online makes it a no brainer to grade, so they assign more problems and non-test grades may count for more than the usual puny 10%. DD1’s grade was like 10% HW, 30% quizzes, 3 tests @ 20% each. A lot of work but she really learned the materials.</p>
<p>Sometimes you don’t have a choice. For architecture schools I had to take a lab course in physics. The only one offered was full of med students. They made it a lot less fun as did the assumption I’d already taken pre-med Chem which I hadn’t. Intro to Calculus, OTOH, I thought was insanely easy despite being full of pre-meds.</p>
<p>Turbo, your DD took one semester of college precalc, then Calc 1 in the spring, and Calc 2 over the summer (at home, at the CC?) What had her math sequence been through HS – did she take precalc in 12th grade, or something else?</p>
<p>I think each school has it’s own “weeder” classes and it might not be the same from one institution to the next. My D placed out of both Calc 1 and Calc 2 with 5’s on the AP exams. I convinced her to start with Calc 2 and that’s what we scheduled. However, she heard it through the student grapevine that Calc 2 was the weeder class, so she dropped it and signed up for Calc 3 because it was “easier”. So far she’s making a high A. I guess her AP classes were rigorous enough(which I had kind of doubted!) </p>
<p>Tuning into upper classmen in your major can be very helpful.</p>
<p>DD1 tool precalc in HS and based on her (rather surprisingly high :)) SAT and placement test she did not have to do the college precalc. Her adviser placed her in Calc 1 (for Poets, Architects, et. al) and she nearly passed out at first, since she had no 12th grade math whatsoever and was/is not a math type. I talked the adviser into letting her take precalc as a college course and she agreed. She took Geom in 9th, Alg II in 10th, and precalc lite (not much trig) om 11th, with ho-hum grades. </p>
<p>As I said, she was blown away by her ‘College Algebra’ (precalc basically) Prof, and Calc 1 Prof also. Calc 2 Lite was done at the local CC online.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that a lot of colleges have super support programs. In her school, as a scholarship kid, she’s under the strict guidance of the omnipotent scholarship office, and they also assigned tutors for free (Calc 1 she had a senior math major who was paid by the school to tutor math-phobe freshmen). For Calc 2 we hired a local college math prof thru a tutoring outfit we knew from the past. As a scholarship kid she did a bit of ‘GPA management’ and her adviser suggested going the CC route where in her case the credit transfers but not the grade. So she maintained her stellar GPA, got the credit, and that was all. She could have done Calc 2 at her school during the summer 8 week session, with free tutoring and such, but we’d be paying room and board plus we were busy traveling on vacation - nothing like taking quizzes from a cruise ship balcony…</p>
<p>What is the point of taking the remedial math courses, unless the student’s knowledge of high school algebra 2 (= “college” algebra) and high school precalculus (= “college” precalculus) is weak (as shown by placement tests given by math departments at colleges)? There is no point in repeating what one already knows (especially remedial course work), as it is a waste of time and tuition.</p>
<p>However, if the major does not require calculus early, it is perfectly reasonable to defer taking it until later.</p>
<p>As far as “non-weeder” versions of courses go, most colleges (including community colleges) do have easier versions of calculus, physics, and sometimes chemistry that pre-meds and biology majors can take so that they won’t have to face a curve set by math, physics, chemistry, and engineering majors. But pre-meds can be fiercely grade-competitive anyway.</p>
<p>There can be, if you haven’t touched it in a year or two. Or, if you had lousy teachers in HS. DD1 seemed to have picked a near perfect bracket of lousy math teachers (3 of 4) going back to Algebra 1. Getting a good grade in ‘college algebra’ and learning the material the right way was really instrumental in her doing well further down Calc 1/2. </p>
<p>DD1 found the material not too difficult but very time consuming due to the massive amount of homework assigned (the advantage of online homework systems). But again, this massive amount of homework and weekly quizzes ended up very helpful as 30-40% of the final grade…</p>
<p>The college did not have its own placement testing to reveal that she had poor previous math instruction? (SAT Reasoning Math does not cover the more advanced high school math, so a high score does not necessarily mean that the student is ready for calculus or higher math.)</p>
Does the major require the college calculus for engineers and scientists, or is a “business calculus” course adequate? Can you be a little more specific about the goals?</p>
<p>It is premature to be more specific, as the student has a few different majors in mind, and some of them are more math-intensive at some colleges, less so at others. One’s likelihood of ultimately succeeding with a program is a factor to consider, when picking a program. Of course, if there’s a business-oriented section of calculus that will suffice, and you’re not a math and science person, you would take that, as opposed to jumping in with the pre-meds and the engineers. Although as some commenters have pointed out, you need the inside dirt to confirm which sections are the most difficult. It’s hard to get that when you’re entering, as a freshman.</p>
<p>I’m thinking about all the comments here, which have been helpful. Ultimately, I remain skeptical that a person who is not naturally good in math, and not a great student overall, is likely to succeed when jumping from what is substantively Algebra 2 in HS to college calculus. Our Algebra 3 in 12th is a program (at a generally rigorous school) where the normal Algebra 1 and 2 content is stretched over three years. It keeps weaker math kids going with math in 12th, and the pacing is better for them throughout. But I can’t believe it segues smoothly into college calculus. It isn’t meant to.</p>
<p>The (sad?) reality, as I see it, is that not all HS programs prepare you to proceed immediately into all college curricula. I don’t believe that the colleges always “catch” you and stop you in your lack of preparation. I think there’s an element of “you’re a grownup, you’re admitted here; take what you want, and if you fail, you fail”. At least that’s how it was when I was in college. Hence, my tentative conclusion that a year of community college might be needed to bridge between Algebra 2 and a calculus-mandatory chosen college curriculum. The goal is not just to get into college; the goal is to do well there.</p>
<p>I wonder if the math department at the HS would offer much insight into this?</p>
<p>The SAT 1 seems to go up through Algebra 2, if I’m not mistaken. So a high score would suggest that the person can quickly and reliably solve problems at that level. Not that they’ve mastered precalculus. And in this instance, we’re not projecting a high score. We are probably looking at a 500 to 550 on the math section of the SAT 1. Again, jumping into college calculus with that level of preparation seems premature to me, but I welcome all feedback – that’s why I’m here.</p>
<p>I recommend following the community college route. It is almost certain that your daughter will be required to take the CC’s own placement exams, and consequently it is also almost certain that she will be assigned to the appropriate math class without any chance of being placed into a level that is too high. It is very likely that the class will be small (our CC has no classes larger than 25 students because that is the maximum number of desks that fit into the rooms), which means it is easier for students to get direct assistance from the instructor. It also is very likely that the on-campus tutoring center will have staff who are familiar with the kinds of math challenges your daughter faces. She will be able to proceed through the pre-calculus coursework at a pace that works for her, rather than at a pace that is dictated by a pre-med/pre-engineering curriculum. She also will have a bit longer to master the discipline of just doing every single problem in the textbook, and them doing them again, and even again, until she masters them, which she will need to have in order to get through Calculus.</p>
<p>Happy, this makes sense. Our CC uses the SATs and then the Accuplacer to decide whether the student is ready for credit-conferring work. Assuming that a student is qualified for credit work, I don’t know if they have more specific math departmental placement exams that would reveal what level of work the student could handle. I will reach out for the head of the HS math department to discuss this, but I’m not sure if she has much feedback on how the HS curriculum has articulated with college curricula. The vast majority (95%) of our HS grads enter 4 year schools immediately, largely out of state, so I’m not sure whether the HS math department has any hand on the pulse of those outcomes.</p>
<p>I teach in a college of business at a major research university. Here is how we handle math and the way many other research universities handle it…</p>
<p>Business majors are required to take Calculus and Matrix Algebra for Business. We require Algebra II as a HS course. They take an online math placement test that determines their placement. Many students that have completed Algebra II in HS are placed in the above course but some are not. In that case, they are placed in the appropriate lower level math course that will feed into Matrix algebra.</p>
<p>A geography major (which is pretty heavy math/stats based at my U) will take one of these:
Calculus and Matrix Algebra for Business
Calculus I
Calculus for the Biological Sciences
Engineering Mathematics I: Single Variable Calculus</p>
<p>The math curses that our business and social science majors are required to take can be completely different than the ones that the science majors take (unless they need remedial work).</p>
<p>Many schools have multiple calculus/mah paths with distict courses in each path, your intended major determines your path.</p>