Can’t understand why colleges care so much about students being “well-rounded” with academics and “ExTRAcurRiculArS.” If I worked in an admissions department at a selective school, I’d be looking for applicants who are exceptional in some way. I’d think people with good (but not great) grades who are part of NHS, Key Club, Business Professionals of America, etc are just like everybody else. They don’t stand out at all. Instead, they did what colleges supposedly want them to do. Some kids take 3+ AP classes and don’t have time to volunteer. Others want to focus on school AND do something like, oh, get a job. But colleges don’t care about that, I guess. Makes perfect sense.
Is this a question or are you venting? Either way here are a few comments:
In general colleges look for ECs in HS because they want the type of students who will be active and contribute to life on the college campus (other than attending classes and getting good grades). Admissions officers look at HS ECs as a way to see if a student is inclined to spend time on non-classroom activities.
Many many students take a heavy academic load (more than 3 APs) and find time to do some ECs.
A part-time job will count the same as an EC to admissions officers. They do recognize the benefits of working as well as the need to earn money for a number of students.
Plus, a student could be well-rounded and still be an outstanding candidate. In high school, our S was a three season athlete, an artist with awards, a leader in the community, took AP level classes in all main five subject matters (all 5s) , particularly advanced in math taking BC calc junior year and placed in state-wide writing contests. So well rounded. But I don’t think he was “like everybody else”. I did worry that he wasn’t “pointy” but it ends up he didn’t need to be pointy to have success in college admissions.
I agree in the sense that I think college “expectations “ pressure some kids into making decisions they wouldn’t otherwise make, because they are concerned about how it looks. Instead of taking a class she’s really interested in, a student might take the one that looks better on her college app. Same with extracurriculars. Hey, some kids can do it all, but the majority- not so much. So many kids make choices based on what they believe colleges want to see and not what they really want to do.
Sometimes it’s hard to even get a well rounded kid. At my son’s school, you can do either sports OR a club - not both because sports are after school every day and clubs also meet after school. That also makes it hard to have a job, unless it’s just on weekends. My son was a hockey player, wanted to join robotics but couldn’t. Had a job but once hockey season came they said never mind, you can’t get here early enough. He ended up quitting hockey the following year and was then able to work and do one outside club. With stuff like driver’s ed, volunteering, a little down time with friends, and studying, I don’t know how some of these kids are able to do as much as they do. There’s only so much time in a day.
I heard an LAC president describe the incoming freshman class at convocation as “a majority of outliers.” There are schools like this.
“So many kids make choices based on what they believe colleges want to see and not what they really want to do.”
While this is true, it is not entirely negative. Many high school students would avoid subjects - yes, core subjects - that they find either boring or difficult, if left entirely to their own choices and devices with few consequences. That misses the purpose of a K-12 education.
Highly selective colleges DO understand the roll of the K-12 education and their roll and responsibilities in the specialization that follows it. It so happens that selective colleges DO look for kids who are exceptional in some way. Why should that mean they are not also well-rounded?
Kids can be well-rounded and pointy at the exact same time and bc it is who they are and just what they do. I’ve had kids graduate with 300 level math and science courses along with lots of courses in philosophy and Latin (on top of French.) That same kid wrote stacks of thought experiments and did research with a prof as a high school student and went to astronomy camps, etc bc theoretical physics is just the air he breathes. (And is right there now as a grad student.) But he was also an Eagle Scout and altar served every single weekend bc that is also just who he is.
He didnt do anything for admissions. He did it bc those are the things he enjoys. There are 1000s of kids just like him.
If you were entering a contest, would you expect to make your own rules? Or try to appeal to them?
NHS, Key, and BPA (among other pre-professional clubs,) are not what top colleges look for, anyway.
Tons of colleges out there just go on stats. If you mind putting yourself out there a bit, pick targets that don’t care.
If a college asks for awareness or stretch or meaningful choices, either incorporate that or walk the other way. Afaiac, doing something because a college likes it…is stilll doing it.
You don’t need to be “exceptional.” But you’re not allowed to be a bump on a log.
“There’s only so much time in a day.”
That’s really the point. High school classes are not very hard at most schools (and SAT/ACT tests are less geared to identifying the long tail than 30 years ago), they just require a lot of busy work. So for strong students the point of most ECs (or a job) is to show that you can spend 20+ hours a week doing something else, and still keep on top of your HS classes and get all As.
That makes life pretty miserable for high schoolers nowadays, but unlike some other countries, most US colleges are not really interested in kids who are entirely focused on excelling in a narrow academic area. Compare for example the classic Oxford admissions director quote:
“It really doesn’t matter if you haven’t got any friends or hobbies or if you don’t do any charitable work …[Acceptance] is a purely academic judgement.”
He said universities were only interested in “enthused, engaged and excellent” candidates, rather than “second-rate historians who happen to play the flute”.
@twoin18 Well, I do think there are plenty of high schools out there where the work is hard. My kids don’t do any busy work. S19 in college now and says his homework there is very reminiscent of what he did on high school which required higher level thinking and not spitting out facts. High school homework included a lot of reading from original texts in history and philosophy as well as classic literature. Writing was highly critiqued and the kids learned to write pretty well. Math tests included mostly problems not seen in the homework but tested pushing what they knew to do harder problems. If one was taking all honors and AP classes, homework was easily four hours per night. Sometimes more. Add that on top of practices, and work or volunteering.
I always wonder how well AOs know each high school. I’ve been told that AOs switch out so much. An “average excellent” student from one school may not be the same as one from another school.
Even in her busiest semester, (where she literally ran from one activity to another and had a pt job,) D2 wasn’t doing activies more than about 15 hours. Next sem, the sport ended, the musical was over, etc.
Some think a kid needs to pack it in, 5 days/week, every single semester. Not how it goes, for most kids. There’s ebb and flow.
I want to mention that people complain about doing things just to conform to the colleges’ wants. But it’s all about conforming: right rigor, stats, thinking, drives, choices, variety. IOW, being their type.
If you can’t or won’t, pick other targets.
“An “average excellent” student from one school may not be the same as one from another school.”
This. They know. It’s an issue for kids in good hs but overshadowed by other local or area hs that take kids to a higher level of academic challenge, individual thinking and empowerment. (It’s not a tip to come from one of these, but those kids can raise the bar in an area.)
In my particular experience, it’s unusual for a new adcom to come on board in any given year. It depends on the college.
@homerdog “If one was taking all honors and AP classes, homework was easily four hours per night. Sometimes more.“
That’s exactly what I meant by busy work. There’s absolutely no need to give that much homework. It just makes high school (and hence college admissions) a test of endurance, when it should be about ability.
“Ability” doesn’t mean performance.
OP came into this with some misunderstandings and assumptions. If he’s applying or has a kid who will, he needs to learn a whole lot more.
Adding: know what? there are plenty of kids who take top rigor, get great grades and scores, are involved in hs activities, community, have friendships and fun, make some impact around them. Then take on extras like a summer college course or internship or job. They can present as both challenged and happy/grounded.
You will compete against them, for certain colleges. Your choice whether to lean back or lean in. Honestly, fairly, if you don’t want to enter that rodeo, find colleges whose expectations and competition are easier.
We will never really know, and I bet AOs have different opinions on ECs that take a ton of time. Both of our kids had main ECs that take over 20 hours per week year round. In the case of D21, it’s more like 25 - ballet was three and a half to four hours every day Mon-Friday and five to eight hours on Saturday. Add on honors and AP classes and that’s almost all she can do. Wonder if AOs like that or not. Clubs impossible for both. They were able to fit in consistent volunteering and leadership there.
D21 recently decided to leave ballet and is on the dance team (poms) at the high school which is maybe 15 hours per week and leaves her time to have one other non-sporty EC. She’s just doing her thing. If she was thinking about admissions, I think she would have stayed at ballet since it would show devotion to one big thing but she had good reasons for leaving. One can second guess what AOs want over and over again but one just has to stay true to themselves and hope that schools see their journey as authentic.
@Twoin18 Ah. I thought you meant that the work was busy work and not good homework. But, yes, that much work is exhausting and a test of endurance. I agree that it’s too much. Sleep is a precious thing!
Not all colleges are “holistic” and not all colleges place significant emphasis on EC’s. Not all colleges, furthermore, have a single-digit selectivity rate, either. The colleges where EC’s play the greatest role are those that practice holistic admissions and are most selective. These are the colleges where it could make a critical difference whether an applicant is well-rounded or pointy while equipped with the academic preparedness. Being pointy, too, isn’t all equal across these colleges. Just because a well qualified applicant is also excellent in one or two pointy EC’s doesn’t mean the applicant is welcomed across these colleges. Some colleges prefer a particular kind of pointy students, e.g., talented musicians or promising scientists or Olympians, etc. These preferences, too, can change over time.
So, what’s the OP’s post about?
The key thought here is “selective colleges”. Being pointy/spiky is certainly important for the top colleges as everyone will have top test scores, GPAs, similar ECs and work experience. Those things ONLY get you a seat at the table.
The next level of review is where the separation from the good applicant is with the great or excellent applicant. Look at it this way, what argument is the ad com going to do make on your behalf to get a unanimous acceptance vote?
For example, according to the Dean of Admissions at Duke, your applicant file is:
- first read and reviewed by a regional representative, eliminating x percentages of applicants;
- the remaining applicants files are read in its entirety by 2 more ad com reps;
- the remaining applicant's file is argued before the full admissions committee and you need unanimous agreement for an acceptance. The Dean personally reads over 3,000 essays a year and is very involved in the final group of acceptances.
So my point is that your application needs to be argued for acceptance and you will have to have “special qualities” or “talking points” about you that resonates with the admission committee to meet their institutional needs for a thumbs up. Being well-rounded is likley not enough for the top colleges. Again, we are talking less than 5% of all colleges (mostly top rated private colleges that use holistic reviews) where being pointy/spiky is valued.
@Twoin18 , @homerdog -
You would like the school district where I work! We just passed a homework policy in which IB/AP classes have to coordinate the homework they give so that the total is under 2 hours for any student. (For elementary grades, we are being strict at only book reading for kindergarten, 10 minutes for first grade, 20 minutes for second, etc.) Our parent population is very united in the belief that kids need time to play, relax and be kids!