<p>Yes, I was factoring in graduate schools, professional schools and research output. That's what a university is. Without it, it is just a college. If you're talking strictly undergraduate, then Berkeley is not close, but as a university it is one of the very best.</p>
<p>At the undergraduate level, my Columbia/Penn assessment still stands: they are pretty much even.</p>
<p>Also meant to include University of Chicago in my original post as one of the top universities. MIT as well, although they are intensely specialized.</p>
<p>^ meh, i think they're pretty even grad school-wise, maybe even but Penn ahead overall. Penn clearly leads in business, med, life sciences, and things like anthro, etc. Columbia leads in education, law, etc.</p>
<p>^Yeah, seriously. By pretty much every measure those two schools are even (US News undergrad/grad, National Research Council, Center for Measuring University Performance). So, if that means Penn is 10th, then Columbia is 11th.</p>
<p>yeah...Because I am sure you've attended both universities, so you can obviously comment on the quality of students that attend these schools and the type of work that takes place...</p>
<p>yeah you're right, i haven't attended both universities. It's a good thing you have though, so you can enlighten us all. </p>
<p>I gave my opinion, because that's all this ranking BS is, opinion. i go to Penn but I'm not some ****** that gets off to the ranking of his school.</p>
<p>Columbia students can certainly be more self-absorbed, but I'd hardly say that qualifies them to be "better."</p>
<p>Of course we only debate the students at the fringes. The vast majority of Penn, Columbia, Harvard etc students are interchangeable in terms of achievements, interests, intellectualism, etc.</p>
<p>Heck, just read IvyGateBlog. Take out the names of the schools and you wouldn't be able to tell the antics of one Ivy brat from another (well, except for all the Wharton students who seem to turn to a life of crime ;))</p>
<p>Columbia has less busy work than Penn with its giant core curriculum? Really? Really?</p>
<p>On a positive note, I'm very glad to see that this thread has made it to the third page with only one troll poster thus far. To me it means that after over a decade of being from 4-7, current and future applicants are finally starting to accept where Penn falls in the annual rankings.</p>
<p>I have heard that Columbia is a more intellectual campus and Penn really seems to be driven by Wharton. Also socially Penn has a great unified class feeling and a really fun atmosphere, while Columbia is more disjointed after freshman year and many people really stick with a core group of friends. I assume the work load is very comparable, as well as the students.</p>
<p>
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I have heard that Columbia is a more intellectual campus
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</p>
<p>If you conflate "intellectual" and "far-left" then yes, you would be right. Otherwise I would point to too many packed lectures by visiting professors and other on-campus debates to prove otherwise. Columbia's campus had "why Marx still matters" posters up last time I dropped by. Penn's lack of unreconstructed paleo-socialists is really not much of a loss. There is plenty of intellectual ferment--it just takes place closer to the plane of reality, as per our Franklinian tradition of practicality.</p>
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Penn really seems to be driven by Wharton
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As someone else wisely pointed out, if Penn is going to be driven by anything, it would be its massive Medical-Industrial complex. But it is driven by neither. Wharton is a phenomenal resource to have but one can easily ignore it.</p>
<p>ilovebagels you are a little biased when it comes to this....having talked to people knowledgeable about both schools (guidance counselor fro 25+ years) there really is no question that Columbia is a more intellectual campus. This does not mean Penn is not, but it does mean Columbia is more. Its not a criticism, its simply what it is. Its ok for Penn to be different, and even o my god weaker in certain areas. The same goes for Wharton driving the school, as has been repeated to be by this gc and many alumni...I think sometimes you get a little defensive about this stuff, and automatically reject a weakness or difference that Penn has, and it doesn't change the fact that its a great school...</p>
<p>remember that one time that the leader of the Minutemen Project was speaking at Columbia and an unruly crowd of anti-Americans interrupted him and climbed up on stage. But w/e, I'm sure Penn has plenty of socialists too.</p>
<p>Btw, ilovebagels, what exactly are you doing in Bangalore? You could be a brownie but you seem a bit cooler than them.</p>
<p>really? guidance counselors over 25yrs removed from their college days know about the vibes of individual campuses of many schools they haven't attended? My foot. Most are just intermediaries between the propaganda that schools put out and the students and know actually very little about the reality of most programs.</p>
<p>Yeah, just on the basis of being a guidance counselor does not qualify them to speak with authority about schools. i would acutally wager that since it was 25 years, then that persons perception would be influenced moreso by the past. And from what I hear Penn was not the "spot" to be in the Ivy League not to long ago. But it is great now.</p>