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I would hardly take comfort from that. What you are saying is that for every 5 students who applied to these 7 schools, there is one sitting home with their family tonight without a single acceptance.
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<p>Mini: that would only be true if the students didn't apply to any match or safety schools; which is the point of the analysis.</p>
<p>Re: Bard. A family friend had the same problem last year (top heavy list resulting in no acceptances). She put in a late application to Bard, was accepted, and now wouldn't dream of transferring out.</p>
<p>I had a friend who was in your son's situation but for a different reason. He enrolled at West Point but quit very early first semester. He enrolled in his local community college for 2 semesters and transferred to Cornell the next year.</p>
<p>He graduated and went on to earn his PhD at Cornell and is now on the facullty as a visiting prof at Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering.</p>
<p>Andi: Thank you for sharing your son's experience with all of us. As the parent of a high school junior who is going through this process for the first time, your information provides a lot of things for us to think about. Unfortunately for those of us living in New England, there is a lot of competition, particularly if your child does not want to look outside of the area. My son is adamant that he wants to stay within one-two hours from home. We have been able to get reach schools and "safety" schools (although I have real concerns that anything can be considered safe these days) on his list, but match schools are much harder to come by. Our prayers are with you that everything works out for him.</p>
<p>Oh, Andi, I feel so bad about your S's experience. I echo everyone else who has encouraged him (and his GC) to energetically pursue his waitlist schools and to apply to the Univ. of Edinburgh. And he should definitely consider taking a year off, using it productively (which I'm sure he would), and reapplying next year as the final plan.
Good luck, and let us know how things turn out!</p>
<p>All I can say is I love all of you! I've learned so much on this thread - even about health insurance!! Not something I would have thought about.</p>
<p>ohio_mom & mstee I think I should rename this thread "insufficient paranoia." Living close to top colleges and my s having music friends that he could call and visit at the schools he applied to Swat, H and Y etc. I think we just assumed that he'd follow right along in their paths, like going from middle school to high school. Yes, we did our share of worrying about the applications for sure, but we basically thought that he'd get into "one" of the places on his list. </p>
<p>jamimom- thanks for backing us up on the safeties thing. We know of a few in that boat too. and calmom thanks both for insurance tips.</p>
<p>momrath- pessimistic and optimistic at the same time. That's it. I'll pass along the suggestion about the good party line; he's gonna need one. Saturday night, while performing with the small school vocal group he's in the kids were enthusiastically comparing notes about their acceptances-- he's got to have a good come-back line. I mean that's all that anyone says to you when you're a graduating senior. Come to that, I think I need a line myself!!!</p>
<p>reidm, thanks for the descriptions of those schools. S has heard the St. Olaf choir and said it was outstanding. I hope other readers will take note- but now that you've posted it here we will probably see their application numbers quadruple next year and people will be posting online here weeping cyber tears about their St. Olaf rejection!!</p>
<p>mini and 1moremom we'll have to check out Bard on the next go 'round.</p>
<p>sac that is exactly how s has been this year. Taking many challenging courses, wanting to practice music several hours per day, needing time to hang with friends, other ECs and community service-- half the time he looks exhausted. And then as you mentioned there are decisions to be made such as deciding on majors, earning some money etc. I think a year doing something other than running ragged with school work may be the best thing that ever happened to him. He can look around and see what life is actually like when you're not in school. </p>
<p>nopoisonivy thanks for sharing that inspiring story. </p>
<p>suze thanks for the gap year info!</p>
<p>andi--
Just wanted to add that we faced the same problem of geographical location (competitive suburban HS near Boston) with both kids. S applied to schools in NY, PA, and CA, and D had only one MA school on her list (other states: PA, NJ, NY, GA, and CA). Kids from the HS definitely found higher success rates with schools farther away from MA; that's one of the problems of living in the hub of the university universe!</p>
<p>"Mini, are you serious that not needing aid makes things easier at schools that claim to be need blind? Can you explain?"</p>
<p>DEADLY serious. I have analyzed this one to death on other posts, so you can look those up. (Doesn't have to do with the application for aid per se, but the family's financial status - which amounts to the same thing.) At the grossest level, you can see that immediately: the rate of admits for developmental applications (those who contribute substantial money to the school), and for legacies (much less likely to require aid) is far, far higher than for their counterparts, all other things being equal. Even just taking those out of the mix radically reduces the odds for financial aid applicants. (This has nothing to do with "qualifications" -- for Yale, the fact that they are developmental and legacy applicants inherently makes them "more qualified", and I ran the admissions office at Yale, I'd do exactly the same thing.)</p>
<p>I estimate the chances for a non-aid applicant at Yale to be roughly 1 in 3; for a Pell Grant (very low-income student) to be around 1 in 7, and for a student in the 35-95%tile of family income (and hence requiring some aid) to be roughly 1 in 20. (You'll never see them publish these numbers.)</p>
<p>"for a Pell Grant (very low-income student) to be around 1 in 7, "</p>
<p>I haven't looked up your old posts, so I could be wrong. However, I do wonder if the Pell Grant applicants tend to be far weaker academically and to come from worse high schools. Thus, they aren't getting in because they are more likely to have applications that indicate they are not equipped to handle Yale's intellectual rigor. </p>
<p>From what I have seen and heard from Harvard's adcoms, a strong very low income candidate would be at a distinct advantage in admissions. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of such students who apply (though things may have improved this year because of H's well advertised generous aid to low income students).</p>
<p>In my years of interviewing for H, I interviewed one student whom I am fairly sure would have qualified for a Pell grant. She was the weakest student whom I have ever interviewed, and was the only one whom I outright recommended that H not admit. Her scores were less than a 1000 SAT and she burst into tears in the interview when I asked her a very softball question. </p>
<p>I ended up mentoring her as she went elsewhere. She was a genuinely very bright student, perhaps even a genius, who now is working on a masters at a top 20 university. However, she wasn't ready for Harvard when she applied as a h.s. senior.</p>
<p>I think that the non-aid applicants also may be stronger applicants overall. They are more likely to be in a position to run with their talents than are more middle class people who tend to follow more traditional paths of self development.</p>
<p>Obviously the student needs to choose what to do here.</p>
<p>A while back there was a VERY similar case that I'm familiar with, [although this student had been admitted to Oberlin and to one of the top three state universities]. This person was rejected at about five ivies, Duke, and Stanford, and waitlisted at Swarthmore and Northwestern......and wound up finally being admitted to both, although the effort was directed more towards getting into Swarthmore than NW.</p>
<p>The student in question had the second highest boards in the school---just under 1600. Had some extracurricular talent (non-athletic), but the person's grades placed them at about the 80th percentile in our non-ranking ranking system. I don't think the student or the parent had any clue as to how low the actual class rank was. The way our grading system works, there were some anomalies, such as equal weighting for the second hardest math track, which had three times as many students as the first track</p>
<p>In this case, the student effectively beseeched their way into Swarthmore with phone calls and a visit with the admissions staff. It worked in that case. .</p>
<p>In another case that I wrote about previously, I found out that one of our school's matriculants at an HYP school went to see their admission folder in hopes of gaining some insight that might help a younger sibling. What they gained was insight into why they had been intitially deferred, with the admissions rep responding to the inquiry by saying "well, it never hurts to have more letters of recommendation." Turned out that the teacher who wrote one of the letters had written a "faint praise" letter, that essentially indicated that the student was not anything unusually special. [This was stunning to the student, since the teacher had actually proposed that he write the letter for the student.] That recommendation had a big red "X" drawn through it, which must have happend after the student supplied additional references in response to the deferal. This student was denied at the other two HYP schools.</p>
<p>The point of this is that you can't know what might have happened, or what combination of things might have come together to move the application to the big stack. After the final decision, I'm certain that no admissions officer would EVER breath the slightest intimation that you were sunk by a weak or negative reference letter. That being the case, I think I'd spend a moment thinking of someone you could ask for an addition letter or two. It couldn't hurt anything except your pride, and thats probably a little low now anyway.</p>
<p>You might also reflect on whether the schools system of grading or weighting makes you look peculiarly weaker than you should. Our own schools system of not properly weighting the top math class destroys the kids who ought to be at the lower end of the top decile by moving them, in some cases, nearly a full decile lower on the charts, and with no way for an admissions committed to guess that this is the case. I think I am the only resident in our district who understands this. </p>
<p>Good luck in your decision. I do think that direct communications by the student are the best way to go. If the person at the other end of the phone or across the desk from you takes a liking to you, they have enormous power that they are able to exercise in a few exeptional instances. You should give yourself a chance to be one of those.</p>
<p>"I haven't looked up your old posts, so I could be wrong. However, I do wonder if the Pell Grant applicants tend to be far weaker academically and to come from worse high schools. Thus, they aren't getting in because they are more likely to have applications that indicate they are not equipped to handle Yale's intellectual rigor."</p>
<p>Well, I suggested that, in fact, they have an ADVANTAGE over middle-income candidates, because there are few of them. (check my numbers.)</p>
<p>The gross metric at Yale (not to pick on them in particular) - 60% of attendees come from the top 5% of the population economically speaking; the remaining 40%, including all the Pell Grantees, come from the bottom 95%. Part of my other posts simply argues that a major part of what makes a candidate "highly qualified" is their family's wealth. So in the case of developmental and legacy admits, it is a direct help, and in the case of the others, a more indirect one, but it has the same effect. The odds of a non-Pell Grant financial aid applicant getting into Yale (or Harvard) are roughy one-fifth of a non-financial aid applicant.</p>
<p>Thanks for the explanation, Mini. I see what you mean now.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification. Can you analyze my situation? Solid student at top NE prep boarding school. I don't need financial aid but I'm not a candidate for giving a building. I'm a varsity athlete but won't be recruited. Great community service and really good but not national award level ECs. I've worked at places most fitting my description do not like McDonalds. </p>
<p>I am a double legacy at a lower ivy but many others in my class are also legacies there. So top decile, 1510 but nothing really unusual. Where do I get in?</p>
<p>suze: You are going to get a much better read from your GC, who presumably is well connected and experienced, than you will get from strangers on a board. </p>
<p>As a student in a NE prep, you are apt to be in a position to get far more personalized guidance counseling with more inside info about admission at Ivies and similar schools than is the case with most people posting on CC.</p>
<p>My college counselor thinks I have a very strong chance at my legacy ivy ED and a good shot at my other top 15 schools. However, I wonder if everyone will be looking at things differently when the dust settles from this year's season. Wouldn't like to be in the counselors' offices today because I can tell you there are some frantic calls being put into colleges that waitlisted students here.</p>
<p>suze,</p>
<p>Just make sure you include (1) schools that will not be overloaded with suze clones. They might be very highly regarded but out of the area (west: Pomona?, midwest: Grinnell, south: Rice?). (2) genuine safeties that really mimic the qualities of the reaches you want most.</p>
<p>Do not rule out the sports. D3 teams may have room for you, or you may decide to jump into a sport like Crew that needs "walk on" women with general athleticism. If that seems intriguing, try rowing this year at your prep and see if you like it.</p>
<p>Suze, consider Davidson, Vanderbilt and Wake Forest, too.</p>
<p>Suze, the whole point of this thread is that we don't know - and the one thing you can count on is that your strong grades and great test scores are not enough to guarantee a place at an Ivy. The best thing you can do is to focus on finding colleges that are good fits for you but not as competitive as elite schools --keeping in mind that "competitive" these day is not the same as "selective." (For example, U. of Chicago is not as "competitive", but it is still highly selective -- it's just a place where you are more likely to be judged on your merits in an environment that is not overwhelmed by applicants from students not seriously interested in attending). </p>
<p>Target your application process to matches and safeties and you should do fine. Keep in mind the college's desire for geographic diversity: distance is an advantage in the admissions process. So from the NE, you should be taking a good look at colleges like Rice and Emory. Make up your mind right now that you will save your money and limit the number of apps to reach schools -- 2 at most -- don't waste your time on an Ivy unless there is something about the school besides prestige that strongly appeals to you. </p>
<p>*Test: if you could write a short list of attributes, or pros & cons, for each college, without attaching the name of the school, and without considering issues like the percentage of applicants admitted --and somehow forget in your own mind which school matched which list -- how would the elite schools stack up against the others? My son started by listing his own personal criteria -- he wanted small classes, with all classes taught by real profs (no TA's)---- Harvard & many other Ivies never would have made the grade by his analysis. So basically - imagine what your dream school would be like, then measure the schools by how well they match your dream.</p>
<p>With your background, I think you can be sure of being admitted at some terrific colleges if you follow this approach -- and also may find yourself with some very attractive merit awards.</p>
<p>--
One more comment: keep in mind that a "strong chance" is still very far off from a sure thing, and a "good shot" is even farther. You will be in control of the process and much happier in the end if most of the schools you choose are those where your gc can say, truthfully, that there is a "high likelihood" that you will be admitted. A 1 out of 3 chance of getting in is a "strong chance" - but leaves the odds against you.... a 2 out of 3 chance of getting in is a very different situation. If kids applied the same logic to applying to colleges as investors did with their money, I think you'd see a different array of top colleges, with a lot more focus on sure bets than on good chances.</p>
<p>Absolutely think of your college applications as a portfolio and you need to diversify for risk while still investing for value:)</p>
<p>Andi -- the question of giving him a line to use is a serious one. Could he turn the conversation from "where did you get in" to "where are you going next year"? In that case, he could answer truthfully along the lines of: "I really don't know yet. But I'm thinking about spending the year concentrating on music so I get a better idea of where I want to go with that," without ever talking about his win/loss stats.</p>
<p>As for exhaustion -- that's my son now. The truth is that science and math courses at the college level are incredibly more demanding than high school, even AP or community college classes. (He's had a single math problem, a proof, that took two days to solve.) Since science courses, with labs and recitation sections and problem sets, are not conducive to spending hours a day on music as well, a year in which to pursue music and decide how it might figure into college might be excellent.</p>
<p>I don't know about classical music specifically, but other NE colleges that I remember high stat musical kids on this board last year happily heading off to were Vasaar and Wesleyan and Williams. None safeties, but the kind of places that would probably love to have your son if they thought they were his first choice. Good, good luck!</p>