<p>Beyond a certain point, selectivity at HYPSM, AWS, or anywhere else is virtually meaningless to the school in selecting a "better" class. Law of diminishing returns.</p>
<p>BUT, every additional rejection means an increase in prestige!</p>
<p>Works for them! (but not for you). ;)</p>
<p>andi, thinking of you and your S. I firmly believe that "good things are around the corner" as my wonderfully optimistic grandmother always told me. And she was always right. SOMETHING GOOD is in store for your S.
It hurts us moms worse than anything for our children to be hurt. We'd bear their pain in a flash. And so I empathize and hurt for you. BUT I feel that something great is ahead for your S and will be anxious to see what it will unfold to be...
Tabbyzmom</p>
<p>andi, you may have thought of this already but I thought I'd pass it along: A friend of my son's who is a pianist worked Interlochen summer camp even during highschool. There are several other camps that focus on music and art that hire students in the summers. Might be a good way to gain experience, have fun, and raise some cash to travel a bit.</p>
<p>oedipus, not me! Others on the board are in the game.</p>
<p>BTW,Oed, how's your mom?</p>
<p>mchs wow, first post! That is such a moving story and I'm trying so hard to put some sort of positive spin on this for s because I definitely don't want him to dwell on feelings of 'rejection or disappointment' for any longer than the initial grieving period. I've been talking up a gap year if the #1 waitlist doesn't come thru, which is quite likely. And since I do truly believe that a gap year could be a great experience I don't feel like I'm selling him short. </p>
<p>somemom, thumper1, mstee, ID, mikemac, tabbyzmom thanks for the continued support- believe me it's helping</p>
<p>interesteddad you know your strategy worked perfectly for s#1; applying to a 'perfect match' school ED. He was in before xmas, filled out no further apps and had a fantastic senior year. AND he loves his school. I guess I didn't fully appreciate how fortunate we were. :( </p>
<p>momrath thanks for that suggestion. I'm definitely going to pass it along as a possibility for summer '06. He'd be a great candidate for that job, having gone to music camp for the last zillion summers and loving it. Too late for this year because he's been accepted to the Tanglewood Institute (yay! something good for him to look forward to :) )for three weeks and so must get a local job, where he can work in the 3 wks off.</p>
<p>Re submitting "extra materials" such as artwork, research papers, etc.: It varies by school, so be sure to read the application closely. UChicago encourages supplementary materials in support of an application. In fact, my D included a copy of a research paper published in the Concord Review with her app. After she was notified that she had received a full-tuition scholarship, her admissions rep sent her an e-mail saying, "Scholarly research should be rewarded." So, in her case, extra materials helped a lot.</p>
<p>That's great about Tanglewood, Andi. Sounds like a wonderful summer. </p>
<p>Mikemac, I have to disagree with you about the inclusion of supplementary materials. It depends a lot on the school. Many of the most highly selective schools specify on their websites that they do want to receive recordings, slides, and videos...as long as they demonstrate a "developed talent." Those materials are usually sent by the student or the adcom directly to the relevant department. They don't want a CD of someone singing in the shower, but many applicants to these schools have trained and performed with some of the top organizations in the country, and these schools definitely want to see or hear them in action. </p>
<p>The dance program director at H gave my kid very specific instructions as to what to put on a videotape, for example, although kid didn't end up applying. At P the dance program also welcomed a video, resume, and in-person audition and interview. Kid also sent in with the app a paper that had won recognition in a national science competition; evidently they often forward these to the relevant department.</p>
<p>At Y there is no dance department and nobody to send a video to, and in the middle of the application process they instituted a "no videos" rule, all indications to us that kid's particular area of artistic achievement would not really be of interest to them. As for the science paper, the Y interviewer said, "The less paper we get from each student, the better." P's whole approach seemed to focus on wanting to really get to know the student, as did H's. </p>
<p>A neat package containing video, audio, or slides, artistic resume, and artist's statement can certainly help an applicant portray him or herself. The best thing for a student to do is to contact the adcom and the relevant department directly and ask whether they want these materials and, if so, what they would like to see.</p>
<p>Columbia's was another site which discouraged add-ons to the application. Personally, I thought that was GREAT. It alleviated the feeling that one needed to participate in the arms race of I've-sent-in-more-stuff-than you. They also had a very small EC area, and again, discouragedthe resume approach. So you had to think about what was REALLY important, and distill your presentation to the essentials.</p>
<p>S is a good musician, but he'd never have dreamed of sending a CD in. (someone like Andi's S might be different; sounds like he's at a professional level.)</p>
<p>Andi,</p>
<p>I perfectly understand how you must be feeling. It is more difficult to face one's child's dissappointment than one's own.</p>
<p>I wanted to start a separate thread to post my update, but thought I would go ahead and post here, because we too are sort of in the process of picking up ourselves. I needed to share the final results here as I took away so much help and information from this forum. We started the college process rather late since we were not sure if we were going stay back in the the US or relocate to India. We would never have been able to put together a college list and the apps but for all the help received here - from both students and parents. I am writing in case it might be of use to others who will be applying next year. </p>
<p>My S is a reasonably intelligent and reasonably hard-working fella, with a healthy interest in academics as well as a few other activities. 1490/800/790/740, 3.5 UW, top 10% rank, all honors, 1 AP in junior and 5 in senior, average public school, some awards in Science research, Piano, Karate, Debating, sketching, no leadership positions, lots of local community volunteering and of course the NHS. Basically a non-competitive, laid-back kid. However wrote excellent essays over 3 months for colleges, great rec from GC and very good ones from teachers, Karate teacher with whom he is training for second-degree black, and from the staff in the hospice he volunteered at. He is an International living in the US for the past 8 years. </p>
<p>Admission info:</p>
<p>Applied with aid:</p>
<p>Princeton - rejected
Columbia-Fu - rejected
Swarthmore - rejected
Johns Hopkins - rejected
Brandeis - rejected</p>
<p>Applied for merit schol but no aid:</p>
<p>Boston University - Accepted without any scholarship
Drexel - Accepted with scholarship
University of Delaware - Waiting</p>
<p>Applied without aid or schols as intls not allowed to apply for either:</p>
<p>State school - Rutgers - Accepted in Honors program</p>
<p>Applied without aid, but free tuition for all admits:</p>
<p>Cooper Union - Accepted</p>
<p>Well, however realistic we might have been, it hurt that all the ivys and the near ivys, including the schol program at BU rejected him outright. A wait-list would have felt slightly better at least in 1 of them. </p>
<p>Someone comented about essays not being able to connect to the Adcoms. I see it as a very plausible reason in this case. If we look at the pattern of his acceptances and rejections, he has been rejected where essays were important and accepted where they were not. </p>
<p>Long ago I had written here about how I deliberately kept away from influencing S's essays in anyway, apart from minor suggestions on elaborating something here, tightening something there etc. I said, it must be his voice, his heart and his mind, and if his personality is not seen as a fit by the adcoms, then that is how it should be. </p>
<p>He and his friends audited each others' essays and the consensus among them was that his were the best. Also he helped many kids with their essays since he was done ahead of time, while many of them were doing it last minute. For a late starter in this game, I was amused to see kids seek his help to draw up a list of colleges for themselves. He is a very popular kid because of his even temperement and helpful nature. But perhaps what the top colleges want is potential leaders, highly driven and motivated people, not the relaxed and laid-back types. I dont know, just trying to analyse. That is all.</p>
<p>S climbed a tree and sat on it for several hours after the rejections, that came in quick succession over 2 days. He is feeling better and is all set to make a decison between Drexel, Rutgers and Cooper Union. </p>
<p>Thank you to everyone here.</p>
<p>Sugee, I don't believe essays make that big of a difference. I don't even bother to edit essays for kids anymore because of that, and I could make a lot of money doing it. I used to do it and tracked very carefully. And I am not talking about opinions on whether an essay is good or not. Some that were lacking in very basic rudiment still resulted in the kid's acceptance. Last year one kid accepted to a top school submitted the wrong essay to a question, complete with another college name in there and it was a very general topic. I have seen too many cases of the sort to believe that in the heat of admissions, it comes down to the essays. They are more skimmed than actually read. I few adcoms I know have admitted as much. Many have less than 10 minutes they spend on an app and make a decision, and unless the second reader truly feels it is important to override the first readers decision, and believe me, they are tired at this stage of the game, it is basically rubber stamped. There are truly a few essays that jump off the page, and I doubt if I could write one, nor could most people, including adults and essay writing services. </p>
<p>After the wish lists have been checked off, a few true over the top academic kids accepted, the really is no rhyme or reason as to who else is picked. I work with a group of asian families and some years the kids and parents cannot pick their own kids resumes and apps out when I take out the names and key word, just leave the activities I have done that exercise a number of times to demonstrate the situation. And yet some may get into a particular school, and some may not. And I know some of these public school references are as bland as can be--sometimes I have even seen the refs as the authors are happy to share them as they feel that they are so good. Well, they generally are not. They are run of the mill. So to some extent, it does come down to chance. </p>
<p>I want to congratulate your son on his acceptances. Cooper Union is every bit as selective as some of his top choices, and BU was really competitive this year. Basically those who got those top awards were truly kids who would have probably fit the stratospheric student category at ivies, or have the geographics and other attributes that BU has on it s wish list, so please do not feel that he was not worthy.Drexel and Rutgers are excellent choices to have as well. Is he looking into engineering? This has been a particularly tough year and will continue to get tougher until it peaks in 3 years, when that college bound population hits the peak. Then it may ease off. Combine that with the crazy number of schools that kids are applying to , and it is really a tough situation. Take care, and you have been a wonderful parent to him; I can see that through your descriptions and "voice" as you describe him. I am sure he will do well anywhere.</p>
<p>Sugee I'm so glad you posted here. Not glad that you've had a difficult admissions experience though:( Cooper Union sounds fantastic!! It's great that your son got in there. Let us know what he decides on!
Thanks for sharing your story.andi</p>
<p>jami, do you think essays are more important in ED round?</p>
<p>andi, stating the obvious, but make sure the Tanglewood info goes to Swat!!</p>
<p>Jamimom,</p>
<p>As always, your response is very thoughtful. God bless you ! And your explanation of essays is very useful because I have the next one coming along in 3 years, he is in grade 9 now. And if his year is going to be the peak of this craziness, then I better brace myself for it from now. </p>
<p>Thank you for your congragulatory note, I will pass it on to S. And thank you for your kind words to me too. </p>
<p>Yes, he wants to study engineering. I did not so much think of him as unworthy as non-fit. Since he was rejected from all of the top choices, and looking at the stats of his friends who have got into at least one of their top choices if not more, I was tempted to see it as not so much of a chance. But probablities do have a queer way of behaving. So perhaps it is a chance afterall.</p>
<p>And thank you for everything, I remember you everytime I see the huge US News College guide !!</p>
<p>Andi,</p>
<p>Thank you. I will certainly keep you all posted on what he decides. He will be visiting the colleges in the next 2 weeks. And good luck to you and your son. I am sure he will come up with something fabulous in the next few weeks. If Swat is where he wants to go, I pray that he will get it.</p>
<p>Whew, everyone, if there is one job I dont want to do, even if it is the last job available, it is the Adcom's job !! Must feel lousy, knowing that one's decisions are going to deeply dissappoint so many, many children.</p>
<p>So funny that this long thread has come around to the question of sending in tapes! Back in October that was my first question on CC!!! It's the question that prompted me to make my first post on the Yale thread! Well I've learned MANY things, especially things I'd wished I known a year ago lol but I still don't feel like I totally understand the answer to that one. A Yale adcom at the info session said they'd throw supplementary materials into the circular file. Yet how many people did I still hear of sending them in. We didn't-- would it have made any difference? Who knows. But if s were applying there now I think he'd send in a shoe box full. As sillystring7 pointed out, some schools have different policies about submissions. But it seems to me that some schools say one thing and then do another.</p>
<p>Also a factor in his not submitting them to other schools was that he thought the resume of musical activities would speak for itself and because he also wanted to stress that it wasn't just musical talent that he had, but a passion for music. I mean, how many 17-yr-old boys read 'Testimony: the Memoirs of Dimitri Shostakovich' for exciting bed-time reading? </p>
<p>Garland, no he's not at a professional level of music. He's 'very good' and he's musically talented, but what he really is, is passionate about music. And that's something he attempted to convey in his application.</p>
<p>Andi, I so winced to read your first post, and am still attempting to get through this massive thread, but I wanted to tell you how much I admire your grace and resilience at what is a difficult time. I'll be hopeful for the waitlist possibility as there could be a lot of activity this year with all of the multiple apps. That is, if he truly wants to be at one of those schools in particular and can articulate this desire. I think this is along the lines of what SBmom said, but if he has specific reasons why he wants to be there and can communicate those, all the better. Not just how the school is good for him, but for how he would contribute to that community. So that would plan A, and then you line up a plan B from the myriad of options presented here. Either way,he will be fine, maybe even look back and say, "Good thing I went to_____, or I never would have met my wife/my mentor/won that Fulbright...whatever!</p>
<p>We can never control all the twists and turns our lives take, unfortunately, only our repsonse to them. Your "chin up, onward" approach is so admirable. I'm sending cyber hugs, if they help at all.</p>
<p>Sugee, I wince for you and your son too. But Cooper Union?? For engineering?? That is one of the hardest places to get into (12-13% acceptance rate I think?), very rigorous and strong preparation, and it's free! The only reason why everyone isn't fainting when they hear he's in there must be because it is so exclusive not as many people are aware of it. That's--amazing that he is in there!!! Congrats! And while I don't know much about Drexel, I do know of those who've gone from Rutgers to the very top universities in the world. So read my "Good thing..." line to Andi above; it's for you too. </p>
<p>To the more general discussion at hand, I do think that admission requirements and acceptability/helpfulness of additions to the app. vary widely from school to school, and it may be downright risky to generalize. Just the differences from Stanford to Yale to Princeton show that. This is where it pays for a student to really know the schools he wants to attend, also one reason why it is difficult to apply to a slew of them, and why it is so tough to cover all bases well while doing very careful apps especially for very busy students.</p>
<p>For Princeton, I can absolutely second Aparent's observations that the adcomms seek to get a clear picture of the applicant as a person beyond the stats. The application is extensive, the essays personal and varied, and it was stressed at the info session that it was up to the student to decide what to include so as to get himself across to the admission staff. In light of that, mine sent an arts supplement and research, both, just like Aparent's. Also, I did have the opportunity to read essays of those who were not admitted but had very high stats. My inclination is, at Princeton, essays may matter. And so may visiting, though not in the way people may think. I think Jamimon is right that demonstrated interest is not key here. There's enough interest. But--if visiting gives an idea of exactly why a student wants to be there, how he expects to contribute to the life of that campus and so on, and this comes across on the app, I don't think that hurts and may help (but how can we know for sure?). </p>
<p>Andi, just read your last post before sending this. Don't second guess what's been done. A resume like your son's speaks volumes, for one thing, and the other is-- you're now on to the next phase, of all the possibilities yet to come! He may yet have places to send cd's, and it sounds as if he may soon have further grand performances to include. Onward!</p>
<p>Sugee, the essay vent of mine is opinion only and many disagree with me and you won't find an adcom anywhere that will, on record. They all swear that the essays are very important. Maybe at times they are. I do believe that part of the "chance" element of admissions is who you get as a reader of your file. In Berurah's thread one of the issues I brought up is that if your reader is a passionate runner, for example, and you write an essay on the joys of running that hit the chord with him, you have just won the essay jackpot even if it is a hackneyed and poorly written essay. If you write a research type essay on some exciting work you have done, and you get a disgruntled failed premed who has just read three other science type essays, even if your essay is well written, and the content is quite remarkable, you are going to be deep sixed. If you are lucky enough to get someone who recognizes the brilliance of the work you are doing as described in the essay, you are in with a scholarship. Well, for Yale, Berurah's son got the runner or the disgruntled ex premed, whereas at Hopkins whoever read the file recognized the worth of his outside rec and the value of his research and essays. Since you have no idea who is going to read your essay, it is really up in the air how the topic is going to be taken. And it is an element of chance as to how tired they are when they are reading it, the mood they are in, and what the last several essays they read are. If you are the 6th running essay in an hour, you are out of luck, probably even with the runner! Besides too many of the essays these days are edited, reeditied to a point that it is impossible to really figure who wrote some of them. In my opinion, most essays are not very good. I've only read a few in 10 years that I thought were good, and who knows if the kid wrote them, if they are any good, if I'm any good in assessing, if it did the kids any good. My son's essays were not very good at all, in my opinion, in fact there were some basic grammar issues, words left out, problems, and I don't think anyone really caught them because they are the very things the adcoms say sink kids and they got him through early in the process for Michigan and Yale. </p>
<p>As for the music tapes, I really don't know what to say, Andi. For HPY, I have been told not to do so unless they are very, very good. Too many kids are in that category, and if they happen to send the tape to the music department and it is not up to snuff, you will be tanked right there. My son's voice teacher did not feel S's selections were of the quality to tape and send for assessment at those school, but they were good enough to get him a voice audition with Juilliard. (which she also predicted). For classical voice, his voice is still not developed enough for a discerning ear to enjoy, but is good enough for a voice dept to feel he could train, particularly the way she does the tape, as her students have an astounding record of callbacks from her taping sessions. I like listening to tapes of any kids I know playing so I play student CDs a lot, but my kids who have the ears, can't stand listening to them. They cannot believe my standards are so low and can pick out all of the quality issues. They are all musicians, trained for years, my son was conservatory level, and was urged by the Young Juilliard program to audition for them and to go into music, and he is not very forgiving on young musician's CDs. Amd he could very well be an adcom, if you know what I mean. So there really is a risk in sending those tapes. My oldest son is the only one who can play at a level where a tape or CD would turn some heads, even though all 6 of my oldest are considered accomplished musicians, and S2 auditioned for musical theatre and had some voice auditions scheduled. </p>
<p>Music is a wonderful EC and passion, however, it is very, very common among the top colleges. It is not considered a hook for that reason, but is a good solid EC like a sport that does not carry over for college, or any of the usual interests. Unless the level is unusually high, every one in the know has said NOT to send the tape. Unfortunately, the tape and CD often does not show the enthusiasm and fun that the student has with the music, but focuses on the techinical and tonal qualities. And if you know the piece being played and have heard Itzak Perlman playing it on CD, the comparison can come out pretty poorly. That is the risk of sending music. My son did the funniest musical skit this year that we have on tape that bring tears to everyone's eyes (in laughter) It brought down the house! But when I viewed it in private as an individual piece, it does not show as well. He sang "Popular" from "Wicked" using it as a sales pitch to join the football team having the scrawniest, gawkiest, most uncomfortable freshmen (including his brother) as his foils sitting on a bench with the other football captain shaking his head. Believe me , it is hilarious and really well done, but just does not translate on tape with the same impact. You gotta be there, I guess. So sending taped material can be risky depending on whose ears are at the other end.</p>
<p>Hi Sugee - your sons stats are very similar to mine, my son is also very laid-back (surfer) and both were rejected by JHU and accepted at Cooper.</p>
<p>Pretty big difference in our approach hower. My son applied to 4 reach schools: Duke & Hopkins - rejected, Carnegie Mellon & Cooper - Accepted.</p>
<p>And 6 good match schools - was accepted to all with Honors & $$ to most.</p>
<p>He did not bother with safetys chosing instead to just increase the number of match schools.</p>
<p>He had a nice ego boost getting accepted to all those match schools and did not really care about the rejections. It was very nice to finish off on a high note with that acceptance from Cooper.</p>
<p>Have you visited Cooper? As great as it is, I know it is not a good fit for my laid back son. Do you see it as a fit for yours?</p>
<p>Sugee, congratulations to your son on Cooper Union, it is a great school. And with tuition being free, a great value as well.</p>
<p>Cooper isn't exactly "free". Even with full tuition scholarship that everyone gets, it still costs ~18K/yr for room/board/fees/etc. Still a bargain.</p>