<p>tokenadult you bring up an excellent point--one which I have started to wonder about as I replay his application in my head. I'm wondering if he possibly over emphasized his music involvement and underplayed his academic interests. It's entirely possible that he wrote too much about the music because he saw it as 'who he is' as a person and believed that the academic stuff would be obvious from the transcript. There just may have been a vagueness of purpose there. I'm going to have to ask the GC about this. That was a really interesting observation. Thanks</p>
<p>Andi, I'm very sorry to hear about your son's rejections. I'm with Northstarmom. I think he got caught in the dip in the acceptance curve between the kids that walk on water and the kids that colleges know will come if admitted and increase the yield. I think they (Oberlin in particular) put your son on the waiting list because they thought he was going elsewhere, but, just in case he didn't, they still might get him. This dip is probably exaggerated this year because of the big number of students applying. With that in mind he should talk to his GC as early as possible on Monday to beat the rush.</p>
<p>This dip was actually documented using the data from Princeton. I've forgotten which thread it was on in CC.</p>
<p>lefthandofdog I have indeed said the lemonade saying to s and that's exactly the attitude I've been taking with him. Anything else would be cruelty. That's why I feel that the Edinburgh route might be a good one for him. It could turn a disaster into a potentially great experience. Something possibly even better.
But right now he's out and I'm indulging my own pain and need for understanding so I can get beyond this myself.</p>
<p>mardad can you explain what you mean by this dip? I didn't read about that.
Thanks</p>
<p>Andi, here is the link to nopoisonivy's gap year:</p>
<p>Andi, though I had his instrument wrong, I had the concept right. We like to think colleges look at our kid's achievement and think: "he's one of the best pianists out there, we should grab him." In reality they look at our kids and think: "what will he bring that we need or don't have." Especially at schools like Oberlin and Yale, which have music conservatories, they don't "need" pianists. They might, on the other hand, take a kid with slightly lower stats who they can see is likely to launch a program to teach piano to kids who can't afford lessons, or who will add to the staff or their newspaper, or even fill out their marching band.</p>
<p>It may be that he missed an opportunity in his essays to show something else about himself, because a cd and awards would already have shown his musical ability.</p>
<p>I know what is going on right now is a form of grieving. But a gap year is a wonderful option for many reasons, beyond college admissions, and many schools highly recommend it. It could end up to be an opportunity to really find out some more about himself. I wish I could remember the name of that book...</p>
<p>I am reminded of a comment that Harvard's Fitsimmons once said. Let me paraphrase ~ "We can get down to the final batch of 6000 applications, throw them out the window and send acceptance letters to the first 2000
we pick up off the grass. That "literary" exercise would give us just the diversified, well rounded and talented freshman class we would need save us days of debate and stress." Having said that, your talented son probably had three too many Ivies on his list, and as others have said did not represent himself as best he could in terms of "demonstrated interest" to the other schools. By the way, when a college asks "what other colleges are you applying to?" We check our student's apps to make sure that the schools listed are appropriate and do not appear to be better schools. The student does not even have to list all the schools. This, I feel, hurt him more than anything, because a Wash U and Oberlin Admissions officer saw the extraordinary talent he has and felt that he had a good chance at acceptance at an Ivy. Therefore the waitlist ~ they knew if he was accepted he would refuse an offer from them and effect their "yield" percentage. (A sad result of the infamous statistical rankings by magazines.)</p>
<p>chocoholic great!!!!! Thanks so much. You're all so helpful. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all your comments. Maybe tomorrow I won't wake up and think I've just had the worst nightmare ever.</p>
<p>Music I know, is the most popular EC of Harvard applicants. I suspect that's true, too, with many top universities. Indeed, there are many applicants who have been seriously involved in classical music from very young ages. I suspect this is also true with other top universities.</p>
<p>There also is a disproportionately high number of students who are exceptionally strong in math who apply to the top colleges. This includes many aspiring doctors who plan to major in things like biochemistry.</p>
<p>Even in my small area, I see a disproportionate number of Ivy applicants whose ECs are music and possibly something that's math-oriented and whose most obvious academic and vocational strengths/interests have to do with math/science. as musicians who are child prodigies) it can be very hard to stand out at the very top colleges if those are student's main distinguishing factors.</p>
<p>For the music to be a real hook, the student would have to be good enough to get accepted to something like Julliard. </p>
<p>Anyway, I can imagine that even with a very thoughtfully put together application individualized for each college, your son would have still had a very hard time standing out in a pool that had attacted many students that had similar outstanding achievements and talents to his.</p>
<p>andi-
Here's a photo of a few of the the penguins out for their daily constitution, headed for lunch. Thought it might cheer you up :)
<a href="http://www.virtourist.com/europe/glasgow2/29.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.virtourist.com/europe/glasgow2/29.htm</a></p>
<p>found a better picture of the "penguin parade <a href="http://photogallery.scotsman.com/gallery_popup.cfm?id=LI873489S&keywords=Edinburgh%20Zoo%5B/url%5D">http://photogallery.scotsman.com/gallery_popup.cfm?id=LI873489S&keywords=Edinburgh%20Zoo</a>
if it doesn't pop up, click on the photo on the far right. OK. I'll stop now. But there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I also agree that a call from the GC to Oberlin and Swat is in order. Ya nevah know....</p>
<p>Northstarmom Unfortunately and depressingly, I believe you're right about that. Last spring he went to do an overnight at Harvard (5 miles away from us) and stayed with a student who he had been in a piano class with. Two other of the boy's suite mates were classical musicians and s went to a masterclass with them. He had such an incredible time. He had learned about the piano society and also went to some academic classes. What you say about the students at top universities being talented musicians is exactly why we got into this mess in the first place!!! Every time he looked at a lower level school, the interest in classical music just wasn't there. This is a kid who memorized a new piece of music while lying in bed with the flu. There weren't kids with whom he could discuss the second measure in the third movement in this and such a symphony etc. In the end he just decided to apply to the places he could get that. And therein was the downfall.</p>
<p>andi, I am so sorry about your son's situation. I don't have any more to add, just that hope your son is ok and your family is all right as well.</p>
<p>I don't know if any of these were the books I was thinking of, but here are a few:</p>
<ul>
<li> Taking Time Off, 2nd Edition (Princeton Review Series) by Colin Hall</li>
<li> Lonely Planet Gap Year Book (Activity Guidebooks) by Charlotte Hindle</li>
<li> The Back Door Guide to Short-Term Job Adventures: Internships, Extraordinary Experiences, Seasonal Jobs, Volunteering, Working Abroad by Michael Landes
*</li>
</ul>
<p>andi, what a terrible shock this must have been. I think you've gotten some great advice here. I certainly understand your interest in starting anew with Edinburgh. (I visited it last summer and it is indeed a wonderful city.) You might want to hedge your bets and have your son start working on that application while the GC or a private counselor is working on the waitlists. I wish your son the best of luck and hope all the bruising heals soon.</p>
<p>Andi, believe me... you have a right to need some time and space to lick your wounds. However, having known kids who have been in your sons shoes and after watching what unfolds, I think you might want to remember that he's looking to you for clues as to how adults handle disappointment. He'll model his feelings and behaviors based on what he sees from the adults around him.</p>
<p>We know a kid who had a top heavy list; an outstanding kid in lots of ways, but the list was filled w/the lottery ticket schools. He was a double legacy at one of them, and his parents are convinced that when the other schools saw the list of where else he was applying, and then saw on the app that his parents were both grads of one of them, the adcoms assumed he'd be accepted and be attending that school.</p>
<p>Well, the legacy school rejected him, despite active involvement from both parents on dozens of alumni committees through the years. So did the other schools. They quickly found a school which was still accepting applications although it didn't really meet any of his other criteria, and he ended up there after a hellish summer.</p>
<p>Story could have had a happy ending, except that he's now a senior, had a so-so college experience, never really put down roots, and four years later his parents are still angry at their alma mater, complaining about the over-worked GC who didn't push them for any safety schools, etc. Family is still whining about how having to check off the fin aid box, thereby revealing the list of schools, is what screwed their kid, etc.</p>
<p>The person lost in the shuffle of all of this is their kid-- an outstanding student in HS, an average student in a college he never wanted to attend anyway, about to graduate and still having to hear the story of why he was cheated out of his Ivy experience.</p>
<p>I tell you this because right now the person who matters is your son... not the other Merit Scholars and where they're going, and whether they are more or less exceptional than your kid; not the GC who obviously gave you bad or no advice; not the adcoms who clearly missed something significant in your son, but that's water under the bridge. You need to connect with your son after you've all had a day or two to lick your wounds, and find out what he wants.</p>
<p>Gap year? If that's what he wants. Scotland? If the university genuinely appeals to him, if he can handle the distance, if you can handle the expense of him being far away. Find a school still taking applications? Only if there's something there for him beyond it's being "available". </p>
<p>I know it feels like his potential is being snuffed out by having been denied at his dream schools.... but only if you let it. Get a grip on what HE wants, and then figure out a plan.</p>
<p>And to your point about aid... my son is at MIT which has a high percentage of kids getting fin aid, a high percentage of Pell grant awardees (Mini-- do you have the numbers handy?), and an extraordinary number of kids who are gifted in math and are musical prodigies... it is not an unusual combination, according to the MIT adcoms. There was a study I read a few years ago with several hypothesis on why math prodigies are often musical (not always the other way around) and how those parts of the brain function. Your son is a wonderful, special, fantastic kid with a bright future ahead of him, but a knowledgable GC would have picked up on the math/music combo not being the hook you believed it to be at the kind of schools he was applying to. His hook now is that he's a kid who knows what he wants, can go for, and doesn't let a set-back or two keep him down for long.</p>
<p>Hugs to all of you.</p>
<p>andi,
First, hugs to you because I know as a mom how hard it is to see our kids not get something they've worked hard to obtain.</p>
<p>Second -- I really do think that your son has decent chances to get into his waitlist schools. I checked your back posts and saw his stats. I think that if he shows strong interest and his GC backs him up that Oberlin and/or Wash U are strong possibilities for him.</p>
<p>I am guessing that Wash U doesn't get as many applicants from your area because of the New England bias that Bostonians have. That would be a plus for your son. I also have seen students as strong as your S get rejected from Ivies, but end up at Wash U -- and be very happy there after they got over the sting of their Ivy rejections!</p>
<p>I do not know whether this will help, but I am throwing this in just in case. I have a friend whose son is strong in classical music and science/math, and is considering Georgia Tech, which I hear has a surprisingly good music program (located, I think in its architecture department!) Your S might be a wonderful find for a college like that and perhaps your GC could get him in. </p>
<p>Carleton and St. Olaf's in Minn. both have long had great reputations for music and for the sciences. I remember that some of my science-loving classical music friends from high school went to those very nice liberal arts colleges.</p>
<p>Again, even though its past their deadline, sometimes GCs can work magic and colleges are happy to get exceptional students at the last minute -- particularly students from outside of their region.</p>
<p>One last thing -- something that also may have hurt your S was lack of legacies at the NE colleges. Boston is crawling with Ivy offspring. Particularly since so many students from his class were outstanding and had a similar profile of EC and academic interests, my guess is that some were tipped in over your son by being legacies or even having parents on faculty at some of the places your S applied to.</p>
<p>"If he'd go there for sure, I'd have his GC call one of his wl schools and make a case for admitting him now."</p>
<p>I wouldn't let the GC near them with a ten-foot pole. If your school is such a feeder as you say it is, the GC has already spoken with each of the schools about all the applicants, and that may have been what got you into trouble to begin with. Your son should make the calls. (I can tell you from firsthand experience that it can work, too. That's precisely how I got into Williams back in the Dark Ages. Of course, times may have changed....but you probably trusted your GC up to now - did he NOT recommend a good safety school? (and if you buy into the overemphasized music thing - which I think is hooey -- your GC saw the applications, right?)</p>
<p>"No talk of numbers and odds and its not being personal can explain this travesty IMHO."</p>
<p>That's a very cruel thing to say. Sorry, but unless you truly think Andi's son is unworthy, it is the ONLY thing that explains it, and actually explains it rather well. This is NOT a lottery. The admissions people are professionals, hired and trained to do a job, and know exactly what they are doing. Occam's razor says use the most elegant explanation first, before resorting to others. All the other explanations assume that adcoms spent a huge amount of time pouring over his application. Highly, highly unlikely.</p>
<p>"And to your point about aid... my son is at MIT which has a high percentage of kids getting fin aid, a high percentage of Pell grant awardees (Mini-- do you have the numbers handy?)"</p>
<p>72% on financial aid; 26% on Pell Grants - just about the highest among prestigious privates in the country. (To give you a contrast, not counting the extension school, Harvard's Pell Grant share is 6.8%; Princeton 7.2%, Yale a tad higher.)</p>
<p>Somebody famous said that music was numbers made audible. Actually the collegeboard found that high math PSAT was predictive of success in music AP classes not the verbal score.</p>
<p>andi:</p>
<p>The "Princeton dip" is analyzed in an article by Christopher Avery, Mark Glickman, Caroline Hoxby and Andrew Metrick, A Revealed Preference Ranking of US Colleges and Universities
<a href="http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf</a></p>
<p>It shows that for students whose combined SAT percentiles range from 94% to 18% there is a dip in the graph tracing the likelihood of admission. The authors speculate that Princeton assumes these applicants will also be applying elsewhere (i.e. HY); that they will be more likely to matriculate at HY if admitted; and therefore decides not to waste an admission on these doubtful prospects. This strategy is known as the Tufts syndrome, based on the perception that Tufts does not like to be seen as a safety for Harvard and prefers to reject highly qualified applicants who are suspected of matriculating at Harvard if accepted.</p>
<p>Now, for Edinburgh. We visited many years ago and were enchanted. It is a wonderful city, full of history and lots of things happening. I can see your S being very happy there. But I can also see taking a gap year and re-applying to some colleges and adding others onto his list. I also think, now that I know more about the music, that Swarthmore might be a bit easier to get off the wailist than Oberlin. I loved the campus when I visited. The music facilities were also very impressive.</p>
<p>I know it's hard not to take rejections personally. And reading the stats of accepted, waitlisted rejected applicants on the Harvard board makes one wonder what the adcoms see that we, on the outside, do not. But on Monday, contact the GC and plan a strategy. Good luck!</p>