<p>
I'm gobsmacked, as the Brits say, by this. Don't most GCs read teacher recommendations, not only to ward off any unintended negative consequences but also to help them get to know the kids better for their own recommendations? </p>
<p>You obviously need to meet with the GC, but this definitely underscores the advice that your son should be the one to call and/or visit admissions offices at his waitlist schools.</p>
<p>andi, </p>
<p>I assumed as much-- because a behavior prob generally means a denial, not a WL.</p>
<p>RE Getting off the WLs: </p>
<p>I think that he should meet or chat personally with prof in Math, prof in music, private music instructor, & regional rep in admission at <em>each school</em>, if you can swing it. </p>
<p>Get your alumni interviewers involved. Get his teachers and his music instructor involved. Is there a headmaster of his school who could be effective? </p>
<p>Get those NPR CDs out!! Let them know how much your son wants to study in a LAC environment and continue with music, which make the school superior to any of the gap year or foriegn alternatives he is also investigating.</p>
<p>Especially if he has not visited any one of these campuses, VISIT, or visit again. He should write impassioned letters that identify 5 or 6 SPECIFIC things about the school that make this school a great place for him so that it is clear he is intimately familiar with the school. </p>
<p>Does he have friends from previous classes at his HS who attend any of these schools? They may be able to help him with intros to teachers or other ideas.</p>
<p>His letter and personal contacts will be key. The CC advice would probably be invaluable because they are old hands at this. There is probably a way to "package" the WL effort just right. </p>
<p>From my novice's perspective, I would think the tone of his letter, his meetings, etc, needs to be a combination of mature, passionate, not crying over spilled milk, clear-eyed about other alternatives, non-self-pitying, positive attitude, I would be overjoyed to come here, etc. They will need to fall in love again with your kid. </p>
<p>Any of these schools would be a great place for a variety of reasons.</p>
<p>WE ARE ALL PULLING FOR YOU!!!</p>
<p>andi - don't despair yet!</p>
<p>Just in case no one else has pointed this out, each year the National Association of College Admissions Counselors (NACAC) does a survey to find out which schools still have openings. This occurs because the schools sometimes guess wrong on what their yield will be and still have room. In other cases, schools can squeeze one more (highly qualified - like your son) applicant in because they would have liked to have had more of that kind of applicant in the first place.</p>
<p>This year's survey is not yet ready (anyone here know when that comes out??? maybe they can be contacted to find out exactly when and then jump on it right away). But if you want to see the schools that were on the list last year, check out <a href="http://www.nacac.com/survey/results.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://www.nacac.com/survey/results.cfm</a>
Definitely look this over to feel better. I think you might be encouraged at the quality of some of these schools.</p>
<p>About teacher recs: I doubt if the GC read any of my son's recs. In most cases the colleges wanted them either mailed by the teachers or in sealed envelopes with the teachers name written across the seal to be included with the rest of the application in a large envelope. I don't think we could arrange to have the teachers let the GC read them before they're sent. No one has time for this extra step, and I believe the teachers might not be happy with that procedure.</p>
<p>over30 - Our GC (great PHS) definitely reads teacher recs. If, for a given college, there are more teacher recs than the school accepts, she quotes key passages from good recs in her own summary report. WE don't see the recs ("sealed" as you say), but she puts together the whole package, after helping kids choose wisely who their recommenders should be. She also reads and comments on essays (suggests submitting 3 different approaches to her; she will advise even to the extent of "great, well written but I've seen too many similar approaches; try another way...).</p>
<p>Interested Dad's advice on Swat board was excellent. I particularly agree that a part of him to emphasize is the "bang for the buck" he'll be: funny, a talker, a doer, an intellect, a musician.... He'll have a lot to give in an intimate environment with a small # of kids.</p>
<p>Jmmom, I wish we had your GC. Our GC's have 500 kids each, 100+ of them are seniors and most of them apply to 4 year colleges. Plus they have all of their other guidance duties. We need a "college counselor" who is knowledgeable about this whole process but there's no funding available. I just don't think it's doable. And I'm not sure any of them would even know how to do what your GC does. If you ask early enough the English teachers will look over the essays, but the GC never sees them. That's why CC has been so valuable. We can get here what we should be getting at school.</p>
<p>NACAC's survey will come out after Tues. May 3, the day that admitted students are expected to inform many colleges about whether the students have accepted the admission offers.</p>
<p>" The GC said that she didn't think that either teacher would have given him a bad rec because as she put it, he's "well loved" at school. It did surprise me that she didn't seem to have read them."</p>
<p>I would not have expected that the GC would definitely have read his teacher reccs. It sounds like your son is in a public school, so presumably the GC is assigned lots of students. I doubt that she would have had the time to read all of the recommendations. In addition, GC's loads at the most competitive public schools have greatly increased because some students are applying to as many as 20 colleges. There is lots more paperwork that the GCs are responsible for than they used to be.</p>
<p>I can imagine that she may have done a very quick read, but would be very surprised if she remembered details. And if the letters for some reason were not stellar, what could she do? Your son would have requested those letters, and presumably the teachers gave their honest opinions.</p>
<p>Yes in agreement with the above, at my public high school guidance counselors do not go over recs or applications, because they are assigned too many students. We give the teachers stamped envelopes for our recs, so in fact no one sees the recs besides the teacher that wrote them and the admissions offices that recieve them. That's not a sign of a bad high school, in fact my public high school was ranked #1 in New Jersey this year. The guidance counselors mainly serve as guides when students are still doing their college search i.e. applying to the right list of colleges.</p>
<p>One last thing: Did your son do anything to help ensure that his teacher recommendations were excellent? Just getting good grades is not enough.</p>
<p>The best recommendations refer to specifics that the teacher knows about the students' work in their class and ECs that the teacher advises. For teachers to include such specifics, students have to help by doing things such as giving teachers copies of excellent tests/papers that the students have done for the teacher, reminding the teacher of comments that the teacher has made about the student, reminding the teacher of the student's contributions to EC and academic activities that the teacher has been involved in.</p>
<p>No one will remember any student's contributions better than the student himself/herself. It is not being immodest to provide reminders to people writing recommendations. Without such reminders, the teacher may write a letter that says good, but vague, things about the student, and that kind of letter is not likely to describe the student in enough detail to help the student get into an extremely competitive college.</p>
<p>Keep in mind, too, that writing a good recommendation letter takes about an hour. Teachers are asked to write letters for many students. The student has to make things easy on the teacher by providing in writing information that the student believes would be important for the teacher to include in their letter.</p>
<p>^^ and also giving them these materials well in advance. For me it was about two months in advance.</p>
<p>over30 that's how it's done in our hs too. The teachers mail the recs, that's why she probably didn't see them. I think basically in a public school such as ours, as good as it is, there isn't a lot that the GC does besides coordinate things and write the GC rec. She said that when teachers don't have good things to say that they usually decline to write one. Hopefully this is true!! </p>
<p>Also, if there was something really bad in there or his essay was a turn-off to them in some way I would have thought he would have been flat out rejected by Yale in the EA round and not deferred. That's another thing that I find puzzling. Why would someone who at least survived the Yale EA round be not acceptable to any other school?</p>
<p>Northstarmom he did fill out a detailed questionaire for one teacher that included reminders of papers he had written and events that took place in her class. This was a teacher who had written on his report card that her class 'wouldn't have been the same without him." The other teacher approached me at a function last spring and told me what a great student he was and in addition he won an award on a national exam in her subject. Second highest score in the school. Aside from her putting someone else's rec in his envelope it's hard to imagine that she damned his with faint praise He's a lively kid who loves to participate in things- definitely not a wallflower.
I'm now talking myself into thinking that it seems unlikely that he got negative recs.</p>
<p>digmedia, thanks! I checked out that web connection. Fascinating site which I certainly never knew existed. I'm sure it could benefit a lot of people to know about it.</p>
<p>yes, over 30 - the joys of a small school. Each GC has fewer than 50 srs.</p>
<p>Yes, it does sound like it's unlikely he got negative recs. My thoughts remain that he faced a lot of competition from similar students within his school. I also doubt that he put the effort into the lower ranking schools -- particularly Wash U and Oberlin and perhaps even Swat (which he mistakenlly may not have realized is extremely hard to get into) that he put into the Ivy applications. </p>
<p>I think that he simply didn't realize how steep the competition is for places like Wash U, etc., and how important it is to demonstrate real interest in them.</p>
<p>As has been mentioned before, his lack of true safeties also hurt him.</p>
<p>Andi, I posted earlier, but power failure in the area obliterated my post and internet access for a while. And for some reason, I have been having trouble posting this week--it takes forever for my reply to post and if I am too quick in moving on, it just gets obliterated.</p>
<p>First of all, I want you to know that you and S have my heartfelt sympathies about all of this. From all that you had posted, I did not expect this outcome for him. The primary question right now is what to do next. You have gotten all kinds of excellent advice from everyone here, and most of what I am saying is a repeat, but I can just tell you what I would do.</p>
<p>First of all the gap year is a very attractive option. I know many kids at S's school who have done this, and many of them reapply to colleges upon their return due to change of interests and/or other factors. And their prospects have been very, very good. My oldest son's best friend spent a wonderful year in Germany through some programs, and is now going to Dartmouth for German rather than Babson for business, for example. And Edinburgh is a wonderful venue. If you can do a search for Nonpoisonivy, a parent poster whose son went through this process, it may be helpful, as her son, this year was wildly successful upon return of a gap year abroad in his college apps. It has not only been my personal observation, but one remarked upon by my son's college counselors as to how positively a gap year abroad is looked upon by selective schools. You have already started somewhat down investigating this path, and it is a good one.</p>
<p>The other thing is your waitlist situation with Swarthmore and Oberlin. I do know someone who did get off that Swarthmore waitlist but like NSM, I would say that Oberlin is a better go just by numbers and geographics. I have seen Oberlin on many lists of kids as a Match/Safety school, but frankly it is not usually a first choice school for those kids, and my feeling is that it is more likely to go to its waitlist than Swarthmore is. You may want to get some real numbers about that. You may also want to get the nonconservatory numbers for Oberlin as they will distort the real figures. Oberlin is a top choice for many musicians. If your son writes a letter stating that he will go there if accepted--sort of a binding late admissions, that may well go a long way. I would also talk to the guidance counselor and see if he can assist in any matter in getting into Oberlin or Swarthmore, or Wash U, for that matter. Although, yes, he was not at all helpful in this process, as I do see a lot of problems in your app process that he should have addressed, I am not so sure he is the cause of the problem, unless you have some feelings and suspicions about the matter. If he has truly put in some damaging comments in his rec, the issue with the waitlisted schools is probably a deadend anyways. In all of the schools I have known, the counselors do NOT read the teachers recs. So I can attest that not having read the recs is not an uncommon practice. Swarthmore is a top reach, lottery ticket school in my opinion, especially for kids in cluster areas where so many apply there, so it is no surprise to me ever when someone, even with top stats does not get in. As for Wash U, well, just look at their CC site and you can see that your son is in very good company. Oberlin is a whole different story.</p>
<p>I worked with a young lady at one time with great stats who applied to 14 schools, including many lottery ticket schools. She got into Skidmore, Brandeis, Connecticut College and was denied at Wheaton in Mass. She never bothered to visit Wheaton. Each time she was up in Boston/Providence, it was not convenient to visit, and it was her true safety school. She only visited Skidmore and Conn College after I assured her she would probably be denied if she did not. and did so reluctantly. And she must have visited HPYC and NYU at least 3 or 4 times. I can tell you that HYP and NYU could not care less if you show interest in them, as I know too many kids who never bothered to visit those school and were accepted. (actually only a few to HPY as kids and families just loooove to vist those schools). If you are going to pick a safety school that you don't want to visit, pick one that goes by stats and doesn't give a fig about that danged demonstrated interest. Wash U and Oberlin do care, as they are very conscious of the fact that they are often add-ons to kids lists of selective schools. I am certain that the fact that he did not visit figured largely in his waitlist situation. I worked with a family who was so upset as the son was denied at a number of rolling and EA schools that they truly thought he would be a shoo-in this fall, and as I put a list together (with the help off the CC parents!) for him, I told them that as weary as they were already of the process, some of those schools needed courting. He did get into a number of them, with scholarships even, but he did have to show up and give them a reason why he loved the school. And it was a tough sell in that they were so discouraged and tired of the process. Some of these schools have a large number of applicants all in the same stats range from the same area, and they well know that they are not first choice for such kids. To some how differentiate, they do end up holding that visit and showing enthusiasm as a factor as to who gets in. They figure that with so many kids applying to so many schools these days, they may not visit all of them, but when they do take the time to visit and meet with departments and ask question, spend the money in the area, there is some investment in the process above and beyond filling out the apps and sending out the supplemental forms. Unless there is an overriding reason for not visiting, and that usually has to spelled out for these guys as they are not always the swiftest and most thorough in going through an app, that can deep six you right there.</p>
<p>The other alternative is to look at schools that may still have spots open. There is that list that come out mid May. Rutgers and UPitt both regularly have room for more kids, and both are excellent schools where your son can thrive. Pitt will likely have money for him, if not the first year, subsequently in the Chancellors Program. Also those schools who offer full scholarships for NMFs, may bite. especially if your son is willing to make a commitment on the spot. Arizona and Florida are two that come to mind. College of Santa Fe is also a possibility. If he wants to transfer an east coast well known school, going to an off beat school for something unusual will help his chances, as it gives him an unusual background to offset his initial environment. That is one reason the Deep Springs experience is so transferable. I know a number of kids who did go to New Mexico, and successfully transfer to highly selective schools against all odds, as those schools just take very few transfers. But their first school did not have the resources to support the interest and academic depth of the kids--they would run out of the courses they could take in that area if they stayed, and, again, their experience was one that picqued interest. It is not as easy to get a transfer into a selective school from another selective school.</p>
<p>I am*not sure what to say about the disadvantages of music being a main EC. This was legitimately the student's interest. Did it hurt him? I don't think it did, any more than a resume of being a tri athlete, but not able to participate at the college level or just at the club level since schools tend to only support NCAA sports as a hook (and only the ones important to them even then). But when you look at the listing that I have that Yale and Georgetown send out on the ECs of their kids (so many musicians, athletes, yearbook editors, actors, journalists, class officers--you name it), you are just in good company. Some of those kids are accepted when there is room, but the adjusted admit numbers that Mini put together in one of his posts for your son's choices, are probably danged close to the truth. He is certainly better off than kids who have blank spaces for most of their resume, as all they did was study, study, study during highschool, but it is not going to distinguish him. But very few kids are distinguished just by definition.</p>
<p>Andi, a big hug to you and your son. I am thinking of the both of you. I would pursue the waitlist through the GC, investigate other colleges with the National Merit or unusual location/unusual school hook, and think about a gap year--maybe try to contact nonpoisonivy directly about her son's experiences. I would frankly (my opinion only) most aggressively pursue either the gap year or an unusual school experience for someone of your son's resume. I truly, truly believe that he would be top material for some colleges next year, should he do that. And if he goes through the process again, and adds some more "safety" type schools where he goes and lets them know why he wants to go there (schools like Lawrence, Macalester, Kenyon, Skidmore), or even Oberlin again, I think his probability of acceptance will go up significantly.</p>
<p>andi--would the college list have been different if Yale had been a rejection and not a deferral? Did that play a part in the lack of safeties on the list?</p>
<p>Having read through this, I agree with pretty much everything Northstartmom said. Pursue the waitlists! And IF your son is open to applying to any other schools at this point, make a few phone calls (one that I kind of like is University of Puget Sound-- though understand that may not be his cup of tea--but it may be open to a late app and has an honors prog). </p>
<p>Good Luck!</p>
<p>Jamimom--Just saw your post--would you be willing to share specifics on the gap year in Germany your S's friend did? My D (high school sophomore) has been saying for the last two years that she wants to spend a year in Germany before going to college.</p>