<p>I’ve just discovered this great forum. My daughter is an incoming Sophmore in HS and MT is her life. We have some time to research schools but it’s never too late to start. Of course NYU is her dream, but $$ is a problem. I’d love some input on West Coast schools. Heard about Cal State Fullerton. Does anyone have any first-hand experience there? Any other suggestions?</p>
<p>This school has been discussed several times - you might do a search. The most recent time I can find is information on Fullerton under the UC Irvine thread on the first page.</p>
<p>I don't think we've ever had a student from Fullerton post on the MT forum. Many of us would LOVE to hear from a Fullerton MT student!! Or we'd even love to hear from a rising sophomore who has experienced freshman year, but hasn't been through the end of sophomore year audition yet! Same thing goes for a UCLA MT student!</p>
<p>you might look at USC, UCLA and Fullerton. The academic expectations will be less at Fullerton because the California state school system is a bit less rigorous than the Cal. university system. Then there's, Chapman and Occidential. All have strong theatre departments and all programs are very different: BA, BFA, straight theatre, musical theatre. SOme, you pick your major after your freshman year.</p>
<p>to blacknwhite54: I just re-read your post and see that you are asking very specifically about musical theatre. I am so sorry I responded in haste. You are indeed corrrect, Cal State Fullerton is really the best for MT in California. UCLA's MT program is fairly new in comparison, but seems to also be an excellent choice. I like that the UCLA audition requires TWO monologues. Most MT only require one. Again, as I stated before, the admission requirements will be drastically different for academics. (assuming you are from out of state) Good luck to you and congratulations on an early start. That will serve you well!</p>
<p>Hate to say this, but UCLA is not a BFA in Musical Theatre (it is an emphasis in the BA program).</p>
<p>CSU Fullerton is a Musical Theatre BFA, and one of the best in the nation (per the Performing Arts Guide).</p>
<p>I am the program Coordinator, and would love to answer any questions. I'm new to the forum, and am not sure if I'll get a notice each time there is a post in response...so here's my contact info:</p>
<p><a href="mailto:ehimmelheber@fullerton.edu">ehimmelheber@fullerton.edu</a></p>
<p>Sing your song!</p>
<p>hayhayden you can get that college guide prof himmelheber is talking about at any barnes and noble or borders. it was published in 1998 and has never been updated. its rankings are also very suspect. the schools they list at the top in the drama section must be very good and i am sure cal state fullerton is great but it lists utah and san francisco state in the top 16 and leaves out cmu and ncsa which i KNOW aint right and it doesnt even mention otterbein. it does list tisch in the top 16 and that is cool with me! haha! it also doesnt make a distinction between the bfa and ba programs and doesnt list the mt programs with the drama schools and doesnt rank them. they are hidden somewhere in the music majors part. oh .. amazon.com has it <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0028619137/qid=1121218239/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-2849630-0573618?v=glance&s=books&n=507846%5B/url%5D">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0028619137/qid=1121218239/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-2849630-0573618?v=glance&s=books&n=507846</a></p>
<p>Thanks for the info notarabel!</p>
<p>Ya...that does sound a little suspect...</p>
<p>I have only recently assumed the position of Musical Theatre BFA Coordinator at CSUF, and am learning an awful lot, awfully fast.</p>
<p>I would so much appreciate any recommendations as to more current Performing Arts Guides...more recent than Arco's 1999 edition, specifically.</p>
<p>Per Amazon, besides Arco there are only two others of this nature: </p>
<p>the Guide to Visual and Performing Arts 2005 (Peterson's Professional Degree Programs in the Visual and Performing Arts) 10th Edition [Paperback]; and </p>
<p>the Guide to Performing Arts Programs: Profiles of Over 700 Colleges, High Schools, and Summer Programs (Princeton Review Series) (Paperback)
by the same author as the Arco book (and published the same year, in 1998).</p>
<p>As for Petersons, Amazon has only one review ("suspect" for such a current and unique resource):
I bought and then returned this book. From the description I expected a guide with detail about the different schools and programs, as well as inside information on the schools. Instead, the book contains a couple pages about audition procedures (a much better description is in the Performing Arts Major's College Guide) accompanied by basic information that is easily available off of the school websites (location, number of students plus number of students majoring in the discipline, teacher/student ratios, etc.). It was impossible to tell which programs had a good reputation or better quality.</p>
<p>As for Princeton Review, Amazon had only 1 positive review.</p>
<p>As for Arco, Amazon has 5 positive reviews in 7 total.</p>
<p>I'm at a loss for where one obtains information that is "not suspect." And I don't believe everything I read on the internet, so please don't suggest that alone (besides, I'm already doing that by subscribing to this discussion thread).</p>
<p>Any advice you might offer would be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>I'll be interested to see what answers people can come up with for you. I've been reading this forum for almost two years, and I think this question came up a long time ago and nobody produced an answer. I came to believe that our "big list" (not ranked) is the best list of MT programs around. If we came up with our own ranked list, people would disagree about what elements are most important. Anyway, I'll be reading this thread to see if anybody else comes up with ranked lists that work for MT.</p>
<p>When we started the "college search" a few years ago I went out and bought The Princeton Review Guide and The Arco Guide. I soon learned not to take everything I read in these resource books as gospel. They are good for getting a feel for what is out there, but it is not by any means a complete guide in any way shape or form. They have no real rating system and even if they did what would they base it on? Everything in this business is so subjective. That is why there are so many programs out there, because what is right for one student won't be right for another. It all comes down to personal taste. The most important thing is that you don't close yourself off to everything that is out there. </p>
<p>It never fails. Every year I hear "I want to go to NYU Tisch!" For some this is the best fit (because they have done their research), for others it is because they haven't taken the time to see what else is out there. They want to go because they want to be in NYC or because their friend is going there or because they heard how great it was. These are not the best reasons to go to any BFA or BA program. You have to find the place that fits you, that will provide YOU with the best training to meet your needs and wants.</p>
<p>So these "guides" should be used as one of the ways you can find out about the multitude of great programs out there. These "tools" can be added to your "tool belt" along with the CC forum, thespian festivals, internet research, college visits, interviews with college students, seeing shows at colleges that interest you, speaking to faculty, etc.</p>
<p>I really don't think you are going to find an accurate "ranked list" and if you did ask yourself, how did they come up with it?</p>
<p>prof h - with all due respect, there isn't one but cmu and ncsa not near the top of drama? who are they kidding? look at their working alumni compared everyone else. they are top ten at least. it is best to do this for yourself and the best school is the one that is best for YOU. the rankings will be different for everyone. you could get the ratio of kids accepted compared to the number that auditioned but that wouldn't tell you too much because the good cheaper schools will have more kids auditioning and how hard it is to get accpted doesn't always say much about how good the training will be. thesbohemian is just a student like me but she wrote out a good way of looking at ba schools on the theatre thread and i think most of it applies to bfas in acting and mt just as well. it is a least a start and someone could rework it for mt. here is a link to that part of that thread. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=157&page=13&pp=20%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=157&page=13&pp=20</a></p>
<p>In my longtime experience, first as a high school teacher and then as a vocal coach focused more exclusively on helping students prepare for conservatory auditions, there really is NO reliable list. In fact, those books are SO inaccurate I tell my students to stay away from them. Often, they simply reflect programs which have struck some kind of deal with the book publishers - as was just pointed out here, many of them don't even include CMU, for example, and NO ONE would deny that CMU is perpetually a top MT program! </p>
<p>The only thing that has EVER worked, in my experience, as a way of ranking MT schools is to:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>First and foremost, talk to people who are ALREADY working, preferably at the New York level (and by this I mean Broadway or off - just being "in NYC" doesn't count) or top regional levels. They know whose work they respect and where those people have gone to school. Barring this possibility (and of course it is not possible for everyone), go to playbill.com and read the bios of people currently in shows - you'll see who has listed their schools, indicating that they are proud to claim affiliation, and which schools recur. This is highly significant because you see who is CURRENTLY working - and that doesn't reflect "fads" in the business, it reflects which schools' training is keeping up with hiring TRENDS - which is incredibly important!!!</p></li>
<li><p>Gather info from students at various schools and from excellent, INFORMED sources like this board to compile a list of what seem to be important factors both overall and for you as a potential student. For example, many places which claim to be "top programs" don't have senior showcases - and I can't imagine anyone from CMU, CCM, UM, or any of the other top schools that do big showcases saying "You're right, showcase is NOT important." Some definitely WILL tell you it didn't pan out - but for those whom it DID pan out, they certainly consider it important! Again, the showcase factor needs to be weighed after talking to people from VARIOUS programs WHO ARE WORKING AT THE TOP LEVEL!!!!</p></li>
</ol>
<p>By the same token, many schools claim "impressive master class guests," "visits from working professionals," "many grads hired right out of school or while they are still in school," and "professionally working faculty" as if they are rarieties among programs. No no no! Rather, those should be MINIMUM requirements for a truly "top" program! ALL top programs have these elements - they are NOT rare! Nothing frustrates me more than having a student come back from a college visit espousing the "unique" excellence of a program only to have to be the bad cop and tell the student, "That's not uncommon" or worse "That's simply not true." </p>
<ol>
<li>Know that you can get a GREAT education at a program that is NOT a "top" program. Most important is you need to find the best fit for YOU. However, as MT casting directors and directors see it, the factors indicating what makes a "top program" generally tend to be:</li>
</ol>
<p>a. a highly developed skill set - this goes without saying - including acting, vocal technique, musicianship, dance or movement </p>
<p>b. audition readiness and excellence - how much a student or grad can come into the room "owning" his material, having made truly appropriate and STRONG choices in both material and the presentation of that material; having music which is prepared ABSOLUTELY correctly (oh, the stories of BFA programs who turn their kids out into the world kind of CLUELESS about such things - NO BFA grad should have to come to a private coach like me to learn about these things!); ability to take adjustments quickly and retain them</p>
<p>c. overall professionalism - knowing HOW to prepare for rehearsal and always BEING prepared, pleasant demeanor, etc.</p>
<p>d. working knowledge of the business of the business</p>
<p>e. the fact that the above three elements are evident ACROSS THE BOARD in a program's students (not simply evident in selected students from any program)</p>
<p>So students and parents, once you start to become familiar with the top schools (the standard list usually includes: CCM, CMU, NYU, UM, NC School of the Arts, BoCo, Northwestern - with MANY "2nd tier" schools such as Wagner, Otterbein, Point Park, etc.), be wary of any school that you haven't heard a lot about that claims to be a "top school." It may be GREAT academically, have great facilities, etc. - but that doesn't mean it is among those regarded as a top school by the people who do the HIRING. Again, people can go to school ANYWHERE and work - or not go to school at all!!! - but I get so frustrated (obviously) by schools which make false claims of "top school-hood" - it makes me think maybe those schools THEMSELVES are clueless about where they stand in the bigger professional picture, or perhaps even worse, that they are selling prospective students a false product. If a school aspires to enter the ranks of top programs and needs to recruit top talent in order to be able to do this, I think that school should be HONEST, just like college sports teams are (ok, in general :) ) when trying to lure D-I candidates to a D-II or D-III school: "We might not be School X, but we are building our program and we want players like you in order to be able to do so."</p>
<p>On that note, the University of Michigan gives auditionees an EXCELLENT list of "things to look for when choosing a Musical Theatre program" (not the exact title but something like that) - and it is NOT at all designed to favor Michigan. (That's another thing I have found with most truly top schools - they don't need to trumpet that they ARE a top school, because their product, the students and grads, are all of the PR they need.) The extensive list of questions ranges from "Do you want a B.A. or a BFA?" to "Where are grads working?" I always thought it was a shame that students didn't get this UNTIL their Michigan audition - perhaps the School of Music would share it if a parent or student asked for it. I don't feel is it appropriate for me to post the list here since it is truly such a valuable resource developed by UM and I wouldn't want anyone to appropriate it and claim it as their own.</p>
<p>Hope this helps some of you!</p>
<p>Such a WONDERFUL post CoachC, thanks.</p>
<p>Great discussion, as always, on this thread.</p>
<p>Thank you, Coach, especially - your concise and educated responses are right on the money.</p>
<p>Sorry, I must have typoed - I just took over running the program at CSUF, and am not seeking programs personally. Merely trying to figure out how to best advise students who are interested in our program - this balanced opinion of the options available are invaluable to those seeking a program. We wouldn't be happy with a student who wasn't happy being here, after all. We want satisfied students, and graduates who continue to work nationally and internationally. That is our best hope to continue to build the program, and national interest in it.</p>
<p>You are all great - thank you for the passion and the knowledge you bring. It's a delight to have intellectual and intelligent conversations via this thread!</p>
<p>eve</p>
<p>Prof. - </p>
<p>No typo, I gotcha - I addressed my post to students and parents b/c that is my natural inclination as a teacher (and I know they constitute the majority of readers here). </p>
<p>I think it's great that you are posting and reading here, and your program is very lucky to have someone as passionate and dedicated as you obviously are! I wish you and your program great luck - we always need more great places for our talented kids to train!!!</p>
<p>CoachC</p>
<p>to Prof.
Thanks for the clarification. You are correct. MT is an emphasis or minor in the BA in Theatre degree. But it has it's own audition for admission.
I like their audition for MT. It includes two monologues and two songs and a dance component. Very complete.</p>
<p>I'm not knowledgeable enough about the Forum to accomplish this myself but I believe CoachC's post about how to evaluate programs belongs in a thread with that subject as a topic---it's a very helpful guide and won't be seen by enough readers within this thread on West Coast programs. It might even be a helpful addition to the "Big List" page <a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/biglist.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/biglist.html</a>, similar to the statement on the differences between BA and BFA programs. If anyone can help accomplish this, I would recommend it!</p>
<p>Coach C,</p>
<p>I agree that the U. Michigan list of questions to ask in evaluating an MT program is wonderful. I originally posted the list in February 2004. I really don't think that anyone from U.M. will mind my sharing it here. So, here's a copy of my post from last year:</p>
<p>I thought I'd share some information I received from the University of Michigan. They hand out an excellent paper to prospective students with questions to ask in evaluating MT programs. Here they are: </p>
<ol>
<li>What kind of degree is offered? BFA? BA? (These 2 degrees are philosophically quite different.) Is the BFA designed specifically for MT, or just for theatre in general? </li>
<li>How large is the program? Where do the students come from? What is the make-up of the student body? Does the size of the university have an impact on the program? </li>
<li>What is the response of current students? Is the environment at the school supportive, creative, stimulating? Do casting policies for productions seem fair and ethical? (It is particularly useful to speak with seniors and graduates.) Does the program have a philosophical approach to education/training which is clearly stated to the students? </li>
<li>Where are the graduates working? </li>
<li>How large are the classes, especially those which are performance related? </li>
<li>What is the faculty/student relationship? Ratio? Do the students primarily have faculty members as teachers, or graduate assistants? </li>
<li>How many musicals are presented each year? What are the casting policies? How are the shows chosen? What are examples of past productions? </li>
<li>Does the school promote new works? </li>
<li>Do the students have opportunities to be in plays as well as musicals? What about opera, dance concerts, films, and recitals? </li>
<li>Do the students have the opportunity to perform in theatres of differing sizes (opera house to "black box") and differing styles (proscenium to in-the-round)? </li>
<li>Are the students taught specifically about the field as a profession, and how to go about making a living after they graduate? (Equity, agents, casting directors, audition techniques, commercial and non-profit theatres, etc.) </li>
<li>How well do the music department and the theatre department cooperate? Dowes the school have a dance department? (Almost always, the real success of a musical theatre program lies at the core of the inter-disciplinary relationship of these three areas.) </li>
<li>Does the faculty work professionally away from the school? </li>
<li>How often does the school bring in professionals to work with or speak to the students? </li>
<li>Does the school have a cut or review policy? What are the standards a student must maintain in order to remain in the program, and how is this monitored? </li>
<li>How complete is the school's library of musical theatre resource materials? (Songs, scores, scripts, vocal books, etc., are often rare, unpublished, or out-of-print.) </li>
<li>Is the program of department firmly established? How long has it been in existence? How is it regarded by people in the profession, such as casting directors and agents?</li>
</ol>
<p>I have taught in three states, including the wonderful educational system in Iowa (academics are very important there), and I can tell you that the CSU System general education requirements are higher than at many schools nationwide (usually 36-45 semester units of GE). Since my comparison of GE is between "semester" and "quarter" systems, I'm breaking it down to the number of classes required (should be comparable whether condensed to a quarter or spread out over a semester). Again, this is only information gleaned from each school's catalog - please correct me if I'm wrong.</p>
<p>GE REQUIREMENTS:</p>
<p>CSU requires 16 semester (51 semester units) of general education, and our BFAers get no "double dip" (a class that meets gen ed. taken from within your own dept., meaning both Theatre and Dance)</p>
<p>UCI requires 19 quarters (a different system) of gen eds, but a student may include 3 classes from within the discipline - so it works out to 16 courses in gen ed., plus 3 more that may be discipline-related (supportive of the major more than gen. ed.)</p>
<p>AT UCLA, only 10 courses (48 units minimum) are required, including three classes that may be taken from within their own major - so it works out to 7 courses in gen ed., plus 3 more that can be from within the discipline.</p>
<p>GPA MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS:</p>
<p>All schools use the plus/minus grading option.</p>
<p>CSUF: A 2.0 "C" or better in all gen eds., and a 3.0 "B" or better in all major work. Reasoning is this: pass with an acceptable "C or better" in your gen eds, and maintain superior level work "B or better" in your major. </p>
<p>UCI: Overall GPA of 3.2 (just over a 3.0 which is "B," but not a "B+" which is 2.3), with 3.4 in all major work (just over a "B+"). This GPA is an AVERAGE - no minimum-per-course stated in catalogue, meaning a "D" and an "A" average to a high "C" or low "B"...). This school sets very high standards overall, but the dept. using an "average GPA" doesn't speak well for the academic expectations in-house.</p>
<p>UCLA: A 2.0 "C" average is required in ALL coursework, including upper division work in the major...not very "academically strenuous," in my opinion (both gen ed and major expect an average of "acceptable C." And again, this is an AVERAGE GPA, not a per-course minimum (so students may receive D- grades without any academic probation or action, as long as the C average is maintained overall.</p>
<p>PROGRAM GOALS:</p>
<p>I also find it interesting to compare the stated goals of the programs: either vocational or interest-based. </p>
<p>CSUF BFA program goal is to prepare the student for a professional career - a professional training program. "This degree is for students who desire a professionally oriented education and training in musical theatre" (quote from catalog). BFA students may double-major or minor, but it is not recommended (the BFA courses must be taken in sequence, not allowing ample units/time to study second degree).</p>
<p>UCI's BA (with honors) program is "designed for students who, while not necessarily planning to make the theatre their vocation, have a serious interest in the literature, theory, and practice of drama, as well as for students preparing to work professionally in the theatre, often after more specialized training at the graduate level" (quote from catalog).</p>
<p>UCLA's BA (with special emphasis) program "provides a liberal education by combining critical study of theater with experiential practice in one or more of its component parts. Students explore acting, design, directing, playwriting, and production to build a foundation for future creative work" (quote from catalog). Students cannot double major.</p>
<p>DANCE REQUIRED:</p>
<p>Also, curriculum-wise, dance is highly emphasized (equal to voice and acting) at CSUF. Students must successfully complete intermediate ballet, intermediate jazz, and advanced tap, in addition to the admitted majors all receiving two semesters of musical theatre dance as well as a ton of quickly taught, difficult choreography in three semesters of the revue performance class. </p>
<p>UCI requires two quarters of ballet (any level, so both at the introductory level is okay) and these can be taken * Pass ("C" or better) / or Not Pass ("C-" or worse) per the dept. Once accepted in the program, only one quarter of musical theatre dance, one of jazz, and one of tap is required. </p>
<p>UCLA requires 3 musical theatre dance courses as prereqs to auditioning for placement in program, and then only "Dance and Singing for the Musical Theatre" discipline electives, which are both voice and dance combined (meaning, it is a musical theatre class, NOT dance NOR voice specialty).</p>
<p>PASS/FAIL (or CREDIT/NO CREDIT) GRADING OPTION </p>
<p>CSUF: Does NOT allow any Credit/No Credit grading option for coursework counting toward degree.</p>
<ul>
<li>UCI: The Pass/Not Pass option is available to encourage students to enroll in courses outside their major field. Courses graded Pass or Not Pass are not included in computation of the grade point average which appears on a student's permanent record</li>
</ul>
<p>** UCLA: University rules essentially allow students who are enrolled in at least 12 units to take one P/NP course each quarter, or two if they have not taken a P/NP course the preceding quarter). </p>
<p>VOICE LESSONS OFFERED/REQUIRED:</p>
<p>CSUF requires and provides private voice lessons to students admitted to the program, for four semesters (junior and senior year).</p>
<p>UCI degree includes one quarter of private voice lessons for the advanced musical theatre student. This course can be repeated nine times for credit, but the dept. only requires the one quarter (so any extra means "non-degree elective," and enrollment is likely based on how many students they need to accommodate that semester...not a given.</p>
<p>UCLA's degree doesn't include private voice lessons to majors.</p>