<p>Disagree with the WPGATW website in question, but I love my 1st Amendment! Ya think Papa Saddam would tolerate similar criticism from former officers? FWIW, this comes from an ex-USAF Desert Storm I vet...</p>
<p>"Ya think Papa Saddam would tolerate similar criticism from former officers?"</p>
<p>Of course he wouldn't--thats exactly why its important that dissenting views be part of our national discourse.</p>
<p>Well, duh! If there's a war, their butts are sent off to the front lines.</p>
<p>Besides self-interest, I think they have a point. :)</p>
<p>"I've been a republican for 26 years."</p>
<p>Shogun, from all of your political posts you've made in the past, I'm surprised you ever considered yourself a Republican. You clearly lean faaarrrrrrr......... to the left.</p>
<p>"liberal media myth??" I was listening to Don Imus interview Michael Beschloss, the so-called Presidential historian, this week and Beschloss makes the comment about the Gitmo suicides - "maybe they weren't suicides" No liberal bias? Basically he was accusing our military of murdering their prisoners. This from a man who attended Williams and Harvard - two schools that don't even allow ROTC.</p>
<p>Random thought...</p>
<p>I dont know if any of you ever read ONE BULLET AWAY (Story of a Marine officer in a Recon unit from OCS to invasion of Iraq, great read highly reccommend it). Anyway he made a good point in it about ROTC at these liberal schools without ROTC, one of which he went to. Most people who go to these schools are worried that by bringing ROTC to the school it will make the schools more conservative, but it was his belief that it would simply liberalize the Military. And at the end of the day, I really believe that would be a good thing. If there were more diverse political beliefs throughout the military, I think we would have less problems with liberal media sources only showing the worst of our current wars. If both liberals and conservatives had a stake in the war, I think we would have fewer problems.</p>
<p>Just a thought, feel free to disagree</p>
<p>Actually no. If we liberalize the Army we will have more of this:</p>
<p>The military is one of the last morally sound institutions on this planet. The last thing we need to do is liberalize it. So many people think that liberal means "free". Believe anything you want from intelligent design, to evolution, to aliens created man, and marajuanas okay, and being homosexual isn't a sin its just like the difference between black and white which it most certainly isn't. They rewrite the Bible taking out verses because they offend them. This is liberal. They have call "homophobic" and say its "discrimination" when you have a problem with a cross dresser attending your church. </p>
<p>Come on people. Morality and ethics is dieing and the liberals claim its okay to have differing views. Our nation was founded on freedom, not the foma many of these fools of slinging. Being liberal isn't breaking the law. Being liberal isn't being unethical and immoral. Being liberal isn't yelling f you to someone whos jogging with BDU pants on. Being liberal is supposed to be supporting government control of the economy and less goverment control of society. Anotherwords they by definition support big government. (Ironic isn't it, when in the Civil War the dem. were states rights'? Not to mention most African Americans are dem. Strange eh? This isn't the issue at hand however, as the democratic party does look after minorities more than the Republicans in my perception but often in a wrong and devisive way [can you say Rev Al Sharpton...anyway)</p>
<p>Thats not to say the Republicans are any better, but everyone, even the Republicans themselves seem to acknowledge many of them are crooks, but the left....They are just to dang liberal.</p>
<p>Mumford2009: I read "One Bullet Away" and like you I found it a very good read. My experience with the military from friends and from my visit to West Point is that it is far more liberal than people realize, and that this is particularly true at the officer level where folks are paid to think. Arguably the military is now and always has been the most liberal institution in the nation; its early stance on civil rights for minorities is only one example.</p>
<p>What is also apparently not well known is that "liberals" are easily as patriotic as "conservatives" up to and including service in the military. Nathanial Fick, the author of "One Bullet Away" is a great example, though he would decline allegiance to one title as much as the other, and rightfully so. </p>
<p>Having read his book and listened to several of his interviews (Commonwealth Club, etc.) I would not at all be surprised if he had a great deal of respect for the West Point Grads (this is what this thread is about, isn't it?). They served their country and more than earned the right to be heard would, I think, be Ficks position.</p>
<p>Ragmanlaw; Im beginning to think you dont like liberals. I know youll say not all liberals are bad, but arent you damning by faint praise those "liberals" who don't cross your line into "too damn liberal"? By the way, where is that line? The implication seems to be that if you can't call yourself "conservative" you don't meet the grade, dont meet the test of a patriot. Well anyway, congratulations on your impending entrance into West Point; I think youre in for the thrill of your life. Make the most of it by keeping your ears, eyes, and mind open.</p>
<p>I actually considered myself a Democrat for a long period of time because I do support big government (economically), but I also support the idea that the government does have responsibilities socially. The main reasons I decided the Democrats weren't for me were:</p>
<p>-They were too divisive on every single issue.
-Supported single interest issues rather than broad issues concerning the nation as a whole.
-The belief that global warming is destroying the planet.
-Their stance on abortion and other small issues.
-Lack of respect for our President. </p>
<p>When I first realized I didn't want to be a Democrat, I was watching C-Span, and I noticed that the arguement they were presenting didn't seem to have any prevalence. It seemed as if the Democrats were behaving like hungry dogs trying to grab and nit pick at any issue they could to make the President and the Republican party like a bunch of devil worshipping imbeciles. Certainly most of politics is baseless, but what I saw was a true mockery.</p>
<p>You can be a patriot and want freedom of speech. You can be a patriot and support abortion. And I SUPPOSE you can be a patriot and think nothing wrong of illicit drugs. </p>
<p>I actually find myself quite left leaning on a number of issues, and certainly don't consider myself part of the extreme right. As suicidal as the statement may seem I agree with President Bush's administration on many of his policies and positions even if the media doesn't agree with them. I have quite a problem with the Republicans for failing to back up the President because he makes decisions that aren't in line with the Republican party as a whole. His job is to do whats best for the nation. Not Democrats, not Republicans, not oil companies. I think Bush's administration is doing just that.</p>
<p>Change is a fine thing for America, if its logical and well suited and in the nation's best interest. I'll give you an example that I'm particularly liberal on in my opinion. Immigration. I believe that not only is it our responsibility to help these individuals but to punish those who have mistreated the illegal immigrants by paying them dirt low wages. Its practically slave labor. </p>
<p>Currently the only 'simple' way to gain legal residence in the United States is to transfer a minimum of 1 million dollars into an American bank account. Is this taking "your poor, your downtrodden..." I think not. We need to make a defined effort not only to help those who make the United States their home but concentrate more efforts on making Mexico a better place to live.</p>
<p>I don't have a problem with someone who is part of the Democratic party or who is a little bit left of right (haha). Infact, differing opinons are what make this nation great. However, I get the distinct feeling that numerous issues (most if not all) are sensationalist, nothing more.</p>
<p>Even the immigration. Does anyone really think we are going to deport all the illegal immigrants??? Come on, watch the price of a orange, a corn cob, or anything else triple. Its not gonna happen. Bring up the issue is just a way to create a rift between 'conservatives' and 'liberals' and even among 'conservatives' who have traditionally been very much in agreement with each other. </p>
<p>Or blame Bush for gas prices? Did you know that the oil companies only make between 7 and 9 cents per gallon you buy? $1.50 of it go directly to taxes here is Florida. (Congress levies taxes in case you didn't know) Those taxes are supposed to be for the purpose of </p>
<p>A. Curtailing gas consumption
B. Generate revenue
C. (This is the reason that is used to justify the tax) Fill our oil reserves.</p>
<p>If you have read the news, about a month ago we decided to stop filling the oil reserves. Where is the tax going now?</p>
<p>The media doesn't bring that up do they. Its not about real issues, its about sensationalist issues like Brad Pitt and Brittney Spears.</p>
<p>...thats it...</p>
<p>FL2010</p>
<p>Compared to todays "conservatives" I am probably so far to the left it isn't funny. Compared to the Republicans of the 1950-1980's I'm pretty much mainstream Republican. The difference between the Republican Party pre-1992 and now is:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The influence of the religious right on todays Republican party is stifling.</p></li>
<li><p>The inability of today's Republican party to stop spending MY TAX DOLLARS and start being fiscally responsible (deficits seem to be a "good thing" for todays conservatives</p></li>
<li><p>The notion among todays conservatives is that "big brother" is a "bad thing" unless he is regulating your sex life, your morality, or your patriotism.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>No, the sad thing is that there are VERY FEW Republicans anymore today...just "conservatives." </p>
<p>"The media doesn't bring that up do they. Its not about real issues, its about sensationalist issues like Brad Pitt and Brittney Spears."</p>
<p>You are right about that Ragman, but its not the "liberal media" that does that its ALL media. Tune into Fox News sometime and see how much time they spend on sensational stories---Aruba, Jack-O, bikini strangler, Duke LAX, etc etc etc. The media is about entertainment and it rules over "conservative" news broadcasts as much as mainstream.</p>
<p>Your points on why you don't like Democrats are interesting:</p>
<p>"They were too divisive on every single issue."</p>
<p>Yep, but the conservatives are as well, heck they can't even agree on illegal immigration reform WITHIN either party.</p>
<p>-"Supported single interest issues rather than broad issues concerning the nation as a whole."</p>
<p>You mean like the gay marriage ammendment, right to life, etc? Come on, BOTH party's reek with single interest issues.</p>
<p>-"The belief that global warming is destroying the planet."</p>
<p>It's not a belief, its a scientific theory that seems to be consistent with current observations. Ragman, Rush Limbaugh is NOT a scientist.</p>
<p>-"Their stance on abortion and other small issues."</p>
<p>A tough issue.</p>
<p>-"Lack of respect for our President."</p>
<p>Yeah, sort of like the conservatives treated Clinton. </p>
<p>" The military is one of the last morally sound institutions on this planet. The last thing we need to do is liberalize it."</p>
<p>No, the LAST thing we need to do is POLITICIZE it. Morality is not a liberal or conservative politics issue. Morality, like the Military is not the private bastion of neo-conservatives, much as they try to play it that way.</p>
<p>God, I wish it WERE the party of Lincoln.</p>
<p>Ragman,
I admire you and the other young people on this board. You all have strong convictions and are obviously very intelligent and articulate. One of the things I found on my own life's journey is that as you grow older your perspective on some things changes as you experience your own life with it's individual "ups and downs" and "twists and turns". At your age I was pretty hard core, right wing, "they'll get my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers"---"God, Guts, and Guns Made America Free" kinda guy. I guess I've mellowed a bit and, that for me, truth sometimes resides on both sides of the fence, so to speak. A lot of folks have been staunchly on one side of an issue until they come face to face with a moment when that issue actually affects them personally. For example:</p>
<p>Jim Brady and Ronald Reagan when they became victims of a violent crime committed with a gun. (gun control issue)</p>
<p>Nancy Reagan when confronted with a loved one suffering from Alzheimers (fetal cell research controversy)</p>
<p>A pregnant 17 year old girl (insert name), alone and afraid (abortion issue).</p>
<p>Suddenly one finds that the world is only black and white when viewed from a comfortable distance. Up close its often a very different story.</p>
<p>There is an old story in my family, passed down from my GG Grandfather's time. In the fall of 1856 he wrote a letter to President Franklin Pierce asking for an appointment to West point. He cited the fact that he had always wanted to be a soldier and went on to illustrate his desire to serve his country in battle ( I feel fortunate to have a copy of that letter a friend uncovered at the national Archives a few years back). He entered West Point in the summer of 1857 and graduated in June of 1862. He immediately went on to serve at Gettysburg, Antietam, Manassas, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, South Mountain, Nashville, Selma, and then after the war he went to the great plains to "pacify" the Indians. When he left the army, he came home to his small town in Pennsylvania to raise his family. From the time his children were young he forbade them to even pick up a toy gun to play with. He was proud to serve his country, but I have come to believe that he saw nothing "patriotic" about a battlefield once he had seen it first hand.
Stay idealistic, but don't be afraid to take truth as it comes to you.</p>
<p>Ragmanlaw: I am truely impressed with your last post. But don't think I'm going soft; I disagree with a lot of it.... ok, most of it. It's just that the post is thoughful coherent argument well stated. This is a side of you I haven't seen before, and one most welcomed. And it's further proof of how seldom people fit into neat little boxes you can put labels on.</p>
<p>I'm new to this board but I'm learning that it's a great group of very thoughful and intellegent people.</p>
<p>Shogun; I hope folks like you can bring the Republican party back to it's roots. It was once a Great party and I hope it is again soon.</p>
<p>outstanding, shogun</p>
<p>Shogun, I can't stand the religious right either. But the thing that drives me nuts about liberals is the fact that they always think it's the governments responsibility to ensure everyone has a retirement plan, a medical plan, and a place to live with wages. I'm a conservative in the way that I believe you should look after yourself and it's your responsibility to make your way through life, nobody elses. I'm a republican because of their economic beliefs. I also would like to add that even with the republican party of the 50's you'd still probably be considered a liberal just because of the way that you are always correcting everyone on whether their posts are politically correct or not. I don't want to get into a heated argument or anything but whenever I read your posts I get slightly ****ed by the way you correct everyone or get into arguments with every person who makes a conservative post in any way. That's just my feelings, no offense.</p>
<p>WPSON2010:</p>
<p>Best Wishes to your son this summer. Just have him take it one day at a time. It may not seem like it at the time but it will be over soon and he will look back with satisfaction that he "tamed" the Beast. There are a lot of experienced parents here, Aspen, MomofTwins, Bill, Big Green, etc, everyone is more than eager to answer parent questions too! Its hard to believe our daughter was getting ready for Beast herself a year ago. We just saw her off at the airport yesterday for her cross country flight back to WP for CFT--they change a lot in a year at West Point!!! You can be very proud!</p>
<p>Ranting and raving with a young man about politics on this military orientated forum is nuts. Take your political garbage to the Huffington Post or the Hannity and Colmes show. The army is a dictatorship plain and simple. A soldier will take orders and some day you may give them. Why dont you keep this forum open to students who want the inside scoop on West Point? Instead of arguing with a young person who hasnt even began to see the world yet or the moms lets hold hands and why cant we just get along spiel, give them a physical break and get a life.</p>
<p>Welcome GenConsternation!!!</p>
<p>Your comments are appreciated and we look forward to more of your posts!</p>
<p>FL2010
No offense taken. I enjoy the discussion on these boards. I think everyone has valid points. I prefer to address the specifics of what others post not because I am trying to argue every point just to argue, but because I figure they aren't posting just to see themselves type on a keyboard--I owe them the courtesy and respect that comes from actually reading and considering what they have to say. Too many times posters get into the habit of posting away but not really considering and commenting on what the other guy or gal just said. Kinda like two people shouting at each other into the wind---neither one actually hearing or considering the arguments of the other. Im not interested in political correctness, just accuracy :)</p>
<p>Hmm... Something like that. Yeah, this conversation has been an awful waste of breath. Its true, there shouldn't be any politics in the Army as you just follow orders which ultimately are dictated by law and handed down from the President and Congress.</p>
<p>Who cares about our political agendas? Two things you should never talk about with friends:</p>
<p>Politics and Religion</p>
<p>We hit the political jazz pretty bad. So lets just agree to disagree and let the professionals handle it. Our little vote will have its little effect when the time comes...</p>
<p>Truthfully on a lot of issues I see both sides, but its a necessity to pick a side and stick with it or you sound "wishy-washy" or in the professional world pick a party and stick with it.</p>
<p>As far as the 'truth' issue, I agree when its you the matter changes completely. All of a sudden your teen daughter needs that "unethical abortion" or name an issue any issue, it'll probably be similar.</p>
<p>Ragmanlaw,
Enjoy your last few days as a civilian! You are about to start a grand new adventure!</p>