west point verse civilian school

Colleges and Universities A-Z Military Academy - West Point
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A very good friend and classmate of mine, albeit entirely unqualified and a frequent liar, cheater, and thief, was also accepted. I was quite perturbed as the acceptance of this unnamed cadet candidate completely contradicted what I thought the academy stands for. He is also colorblind to the degree of failing the colorblindness exam several times, finally passing only after having taken the identical exam over and over until memorizing a sufficient amount of correct responses (It was between him and the optometrist). This showed me that the standards this year may or may not be up to par with years past.

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<p>I don't believe the standards are any lower this year. There are always some cheaters and liars that will slip through, no admissions process is perfect. It is too bad he will be taking the place of a candidate that did not cheat on his application. Hopefully, his true colors will be found out quickly and he will be removed from West Point. Sounds like he is going to have a big problem with the honor code. </p>

<p>Just wondering...why are you still "very good friends" with a person who is a liar, a cheater, and a thief?</p>

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<p>Well Im sure not too many entering cadets are morally flawless angels going into the academy. He has just gotten used to small lies, half truths, etc and I was hoping very much during the entire process that he would not be accepted. I like the guy a lot, but I would not feel comfortable depending on him in a war-zone, and he doesn't exactly represent the ideals of the academy very well; I don't feel like he can change quickly enough. The small stuff is what they really hate and get you on. If the system works, he will either straighten up, or he will be separated at one point or another. </p>

<p>P.S. I have followed the honor code myself in asking he turn himself in, or at least retake the exam to prove that he is qualified. If he does not respond to this, I will try to take further action.</p>

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<p>"I received principal nomination to the big three USMA, USNA, and USAFA, but I only bothered to submit an application for West Point since I felt so sure."</p>

<p>For future candidates----MOC's require that you have applied to the academy for which you receive a nomination.</p>

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<p>Lots of great discussion here. Thanks. I'd like to comment on one point. That 9-year commitment that is scary to make when you're 17 and wondering about the experiences you will miss is not a black hole. You'll just substitute other experiences for it. You aren't losing part of your life. You'll have many choices in the future and this is just one of the first big ones. Should you marry? Who? Should you have children? How many? Should you go to grad school? Or work? Should you take the great job with a big paycheck or the job doing exactly what you want? Each choice means that you'll be missing out on different experiences. But that's what life really is.</p>

<p>You'll see that most folks on these boards really believe in the service academies and their mission. However, no one would want to talk a future cadet into the life. I'm not suggesting that you accept the appointment in order to "test the waters", but that really is an option. That's why the system works the way it does. But for anyone who decides to go this route, please know that there will be days when you question your decision. If you make it too easy for yourself to walk out, it is a disservice to yourself. </p>

<p>Best of luck and please let us know how you decide.</p>

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<p>"Should you take the great job with a big paycheck or the job doing exactly what you want?"</p>

<p>Having had the one and never seeming to find the other.....take it from an old guy....pick the job you want.</p>

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<p>CDK321...To begin with color blindness is a misnomer, unless you are referring to a monochromat, someone that only sees black and white. It is highly unlikely that your friend is a monochromat as monochromats are extremely rare. So your friend is most likely color deficient, a malady that affects about ten percent of US males. There are many different color deficiencies, such as red-green, blue yellow and so forth. So unless you know exactly the type and degree of your friend's color deficiency, don't rush to judgment.</p>

<p>I should also tell you that I am color deficient as is my son who received a waiver from West Point last year. He went through a battery of tests and absent outright fraud, you can not cheat on what you would call a color blindness test. Quite simply, someone that is color deficient can see things that you can not see and vice versa. The initial test that is given first involves cards or "plates" with numbers inside dots arranged in a circle. They are random and the applicant must tell the Doctor what number he or she sees in the circle, or that they don't see any number at all. Again, I might see 56 and you might see 88. The second part of the test involves following a certain color of dots in a line through a circle of dots. There is no way, absent out right fraud that someone is color deficient can handle that task correctly. The trail that I would follow is not the same trail that you would follow.</p>

<p>If a candidate fails that test, at an academy's request, he or she may be able to take a color deficiency test referred to as the "lantern test" which involves identifying red, green and white lights that go off in random order. The test is given at a military facility so the chances of cheating on that test are pretty much non-existent. If the candidate fails that test, there is no way he or she will be pilot certified and the chances of ever serving on a ship also slip. At that point the applicant must seek a waiver from whichever service academy the candidate wants to attend. </p>

<p>You should also know that West Point, the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy all grant waivers to applicants that are color deficient. The USCGA and USMMA do not. The color perception standards are different for each academy and West Point has a reputation for granting the most waivers for applicants that are color deficient. The standard West Point uses is whether the candidate can distinguish between vivid red and vivid green. If a candidate can distinguish between vivid red and vivid green, West Point may grant the applicant a waiver. I know because my son was granted a waiver last year.</p>

<p>So make sure you have all of the facts before you judge your "friend." It is possible that he has a waiver or was not so color deficient that he could not pass the initial test.</p>

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"Should you take the great job with a big paycheck or the job doing exactly what you want?"</p>

<p>Having had the one and never seeming to find the other.....take it from an old guy....pick the job you want.

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<p>I've had the job with the big paycheck. It's not the greatest thing in the world. </p>

<p>Trust me; listen to Shogun and follow your heart. You'll have more fun, and that's worth a LOT of money.</p>

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Zaphod, USNA forum is that way ^^^^^ :)

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<p>Just trying to bring some help and respectibility to the Woop section of the board. ;)</p>

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<p>Zaphod,</p>

<p>It is unfortunate that you just had to go to USNA, but yes your opinions are highly valued :)</p>

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<p>LOL! Thanks! :o</p>

<p>Zaphod - Speaking Truth to Woops since 2005. :D</p>

<p>Excuse me while I reach for the hand sanitizer.... ;)</p>

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<p>I am currently in the process of trying to convince two high school juniors to go for USMA instead of Annapolis. Not that I'm biased...</p>

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<p>Qwertz</p>

<p>Very strange, my son has the same choice between West Point and UC-Berkeley. He is an out of state admission for Berkeley and it has a hell of a lot more status out of state than what you mentioned. The fact he has this choice is really from his family and those close to him insisting he have a choice - and we werent sure he would make West Point.</p>

<p>But he made it and we asked him as an obligation to himself and his family to really check out Berkeley. Otherwise he would have immediately taken West Point.</p>

<p>He has just returned from Berkeley and will decide today or tomorrow. Now he is on his own. He at least gave it a complete and deep consideration. The only comment I could get out of him in regards to Berkeley was the incredible oppresive begging from homeless that goes on - it sounds like India.</p>

<p>Son is also very much a "non-military" type of guy and he certainly has no military background in his family tree. In fact, if anything, the family is somewhat anti-military. He did have a grandfather he was close to (deceased) who was Canadian Airborne circa WWII. I think that is where he developed his respect for the military. But his grandfather never romanticized his experiences and if he discussed it he would discuss the sacrifice he witnessed.</p>

<p>I suspect he is headed for West Point and while incredibly proud of him, I am also keenly aware of the sacrifice and commitment he is making. I feel more akin to him going into a seminary as it is a life's commitment. He is up to succeeding as the attirbutes that made West Point offer him admission will stand him in good stead. I also think he would be the type of young officer I would want my 18 year old GI from Ohio or Arkansaw serving under - he has that keen sense of dedication and responsibility.</p>

<p>But to turn down Cal-Berkeley is a hell of a price - but it seems that is in my eyes, not his. I am incredibly proud of his accomplishment, but I cant say we are delighted. Our pride is very sober.</p>

<p>By defintion, anyone who makes West Point is exceptional. But those who turn down the likes of Cal-Berkeley or Harvard or U of Texas for West Point, knowing they do not need the "prestige" of West Point are pretty unique, for they are showing that they are not entering West Point for status or resume or as a long term career door opener. Cant say I really understand.</p>

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<p>"anyone who makes West Point is exceptional. But those who turn down the likes of Cal-Berkeley or Harvard or U of Texas for West Point, knowing they do not need the "prestige" of West Point are pretty unique"</p>

<p>Not so, many candidates turn down really good schools in favor of WP. </p>

<p>"I am incredibly proud of his accomplishment, but I cant say we are delighted. Our pride is very sober."</p>

<p>You are not alone, as one parent so eloquently said: parents leave R-day with a tear in the eye and pride in the heart.</p>

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Very strange, my son has the same choice between West Point and UC-Berkeley....In fact, if anything, the family is somewhat anti-military....

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<p>Since your family is anti-military, I would sat that UC Berkely is definitely the right school for your family. Your son would feel at home in the Bay Area. :D</p>

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<p>I was in much the same situation (OK, exactly the same situation. I get the feeling we're in the same school district) as Qwertz82 - I only got interested in West Point summer of sophmore year, where I got one of those pamphlets inviting me to SLS on account of my PSAT scores. I didn't even like the pamphlet or the sound of the program, to tell you the truth, I just applied to tick off my parents (we're all immigrants from Russia. Long story made short: army in Russia = BAD). Got in, checked it out for a week, fell in love. Applied to some other civvie schools though, cuz I wasn't stupid enough to make a decision as huge as attending West Point because of one little summer program.</p>

<p>Then the day of reckoning came - January 5th, I got a phone call saying I got into the US Military Academy. March the 28th, got emails saying I got into the honors programs at both UCSD and UCSB. My response? "****."</p>

<p>For me, deciding between colleges wasn't between UCSD and UCSB and West Point, it wasn't about location or major or party scene. It was simple - army or civilian. Party and study or do PT and study. Get sleep, or spend endless hours memorizing knowledge. Travel Europe after graduation, or be stationed there. Serve or don't serve. </p>

<p>Anyway, I couldn't make up my mind till about last week, so this is really a good time to start this thread. I visited all three campuses, and my overnight to West Point really cemented my decision. Here's what I witnessed at the UC's I went to: people hurrying to their 2 or 3 classes per day, looking a bit hungover, all tanned, but looking as if they thoroughly enjoy life. At West Point? People being organized in a strict and simple manner, knowing exactly what they'd be doing and how they'd be doing it, and doing it all with gusto that only West Point cadets can. The really surprising bit, though, was that they were just as happy as the frat guys I met at UCSB. People at West Point love being at West Point, despite all their complaining. Cadets are the type of people who are incredibly selfless, dedicated, and mentally and physically tough enough to challenge themselves and prove their own worth to themselves every single day. THAT is the group of people I want to be surrounded by during the most influential 4 years of my life, and that's what really made my decision for me. I get to be taught by the best teacher in the world, do amazing things after graduation, serve my nation, and do it all surrounded by 1000 of the brightest people in the USA.</p>

<p>I know this has been kind of a long rant, and I'm not even sure if I've answered the question, but let this be my final word of advice: you have all the reason in the world to be nervous about filling out that little gray card. But if you think that you're really the kind of person who can follow up that seemingly tiny action with 4 years of hard work and a career of service, then by g-d man, screw boston! It's serve in the army and become the best officer (and person, IMHO) you can become, or go to a civvie school and leave it mostly up to chance. West Point molds you into a leader, a person other can aspire to be, while civvie schools, (again, IMHO) just throw classes and clubs at you and hope you become a good kid.</p>

<p>Anyway, sorry about the rant, and especially sorry if I happened to say anything that didn't sit easy with anyone.</p>

<p>-tall_ruski</p>

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<p>FatProp - congratulations on having your son get accepted to both schools. I actually visited Berkeley last weekend for Cal Day. It was a very nice campus - minus the hobos walking around. The place almost made me regret choosing West Point.</p>

<p>Have your son choose what he thinks is right for him. I made the decision long ago to not regret whichever school I eventually chose, and hopefully your son will feel the same way about his decision. Like momoftwins said, by not going to Berkeley, your son would not be "giving it up", he'd just be trading it for a different experience. He'll most likely come out of West Point a stronger individual than when he goes in. You can't say that about many other schools. Anyways, I hope your son the best of luck at whichever university he chooses to attend.</p>

<p>P.S. - the most interesting thing I saw at Cal: a group of guys were advertising for a gay fraternity at Cal Day.</p>

<p>Even better, they were handing out free condoms.</p>

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<p>shogun - you're right. I have considered the fact that by going to the academy, I would probably be taking the place of another kid who would've wanted to go there a lot more than I do. Ultimately, West Point has decided to offer me an appointment here, and I have chosen to accept it.</p>

<p>The only reassurance I can give you about my commitment to the military is this: as long as I'm enrolled in West Point or serving in the Army, I will do my best to live up to the expectations and the ideals of the United States Military Academy and the United States Army. What more can I say?</p>

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<p>Qwertz,
Congratulations! Thank you for sharing your thoughts during your decision making process. I wish you all the best at USMA!!!</p>

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<p>Son is off to West Point. Turned down Cal-Berkeley. It is all he has dreamed of the last 2 years so not at all a surprise.</p>

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<p>Congratulations! An emotional roller coaster ride lies ahead for all.</p>

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<p>Qwertz82 and to all the other men & women accepted to WP-- Congratulations! To be accepted to WP or any military academy is a real honor. There will be no doubt many times while at WP you may be second guessing your decision to attend, however, ultimately in the end you will not regret your decision one bit. Don't be concerned with a little bit of doubt, most cadets have at least a bit of "what if" or "what am I doing" going in, but the end goal is well worth it. You won't regret your decision!</p>