Wharton Prof Adam Grant: UPenn's Hypercompetitive Culture is the Worst I've Seen

@Cue7 I have no issues with you. it is @Penn95 who is the obsessive UChicago basher.

@Chrchill you are late to the party. I wasn’t the one who brought up Chicago in the first place. You are free to think of Chicago however you want what do I care? Yes it is a peer of Harvard if that makes you happy…

@IWannaHelp many schools have incubators and dual degrees but not to the extent Penn or Stanford do and are not as entrepreneurial as These two schools are. Also Stanford is giving a real push for dual degree programs. There are actually quite a few NU grads transferring to Penn each year, by a huge number but substantial. And that is what they all said,that people at Penn juggled way more things than people at NU and took extracurriculars, Internships etc more seriously. But I do agree that there are similarities between NU and Penn.
But there are also many similarities between Penn and Stanford. As I said many times before the similarities between the student bodies can be traced in the fact that both are social and also very academically and pre-professionally motivated. And student organizations are a central part of the colleges experience in both schools and is a big way students socialize.

@Penn95 You obviously care obsessively as you spend a lot of time bashing UChicago at every turn. Even criticizing them for ED’s which Penn has adopted years ago, Obviously, you simply refuse to accept the fact that UChicago finally is receiving the public recognition and rankings that it deserves. It is an intellectual power house of global first order and has made huge strides in college living. It s a Harvard peer in all fields except life sciences, and in some discreet areas, like English and near eastern studies, is actually ahead. .

Oh good, a thread mostly full of people who never attended Penn as an undergrad commenting on what they think of the undergraduate experience at Penn… That will surely add great value to prospective students trying to consider whether or not to go to Penn and its peers… 8-|

When i was considering whether or not to matriculate at Penn i was happily and primarily choosing between Penn, Yale, and Columbia. I considered Northwestern (and actually spent the better part of 5 months there during high school) but ultimately it was too dissimilar from the other three because it’s suburban location and participation in the Big 10. To compare evanston to west philadelphia/NYC/New Haven is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever seen. Evanston is not urban and by any city dweller’s standards, it’s not even ‘near’ Chicago-- which is to say that it’s in a rich, primarily white suburb of Chicago. West Philly, on the other hand, is a vibrant and integral component of the city’s fabric. Let’s not compare taking public transportation/a shuttle to Chicago every once in a while with living in America’s 5th largest city every day of your life. And being in the big 10 gives northwestern a very different vibe. Granted, Northwestern is NOT michigan or Ohio State. But the Penn Quakers would literally break their vow against violence to get a turnout to their football games that looked ANYTHING like what happens at Northwestern. Yes, northwestern has a school of journalism and a certificate in business or whatever-- so what? Georgetown actually has almost the exact same schools as Penn (nursing, college, business and then Gtown has SFS) and it’s actually IN a city (well… it’s basically in a city)-- there’s much more fertile ground for cultural comparisons there. But Penn just isn’t like schools that aren’t embedded in America’s Acela Corridor-- the geography is just too powerful an influence on how students interact and what they do with their free time. It even influences the way they see their campuses and educations in the context of the world outside.

On the other hand, culturally Penn was most similar to Columbia in the ways that mattered to me. Both were products of the cities that housed them and they both had gorgeous urban campuses. Columbia/Barnard has 11,286 full time undergrad students and Penn has 10,468 full time undergraduate students making them near twins in size (you can’t discount Barnard students when considering campus culture since they are a prominent part of Columbia’s culture. They take classes at, join clubs at, and use Columbia’s resources and Columbia students do the same at Barnard). Both schools were exceptionally pre-professional (a disproportionate number of grads go into finance, consulting, engineering and professional school at both) but centered around two of the most robust liberal arts colleges in higher education. The students were smart and social but not nerdy in that ~Princeton~ way. They were acutely aware that their educations were in the context of a world that preexisted the creation of their institutions and that had profound affects beyond the boundaries of their campuses on a map. Both schools had a proud tradition of being home to some of the absolute best and historically significant professional schools in the world (Wharton, Columbia Law, Penn Med, SIPA) and each school was clearly influenced by the strength of those grad schools in genuinely enriching ways. Yet both had undergraduate student bodies that remained central foci of the universities as wholes. Both student bodies felt like they were full of self-starters and go-getters. There was just an energy and enthusiasm that permeated their bustling, pre-professional, urban campuses full of rock-star students with ambition and an eye for what was happening in the real world as much as for what was happening in the classroom.

Ultimately I felt Penn was a better fit for me because while it shared those cultural and structural commonalities with Columbia, it had more of the campus oriented feel and community oriented atmosphere that I associate more with Yale. I felt like Penn was the perfect balance between Columbia and Yale and increasingly I’m surprised by how right I was!

Also lol @ the people talking about the special geniuses gracing the halls of Harvard and Stanford and “maybe Yale and Princeton.” Y’all are talking about 17-22 year olds with basically identical SAT scores, GPAs, and high school accomplishments… Sure Harvard has its zuckerbergs and Penn has its Elon Musks… but the vast majority of kids at these schools (yup, all of 'em) are intellectually identical. It’s their attitudes, personalities and ambitions that set them apart.

@Penn95

Re Stanford you said: “the student bodies… are social and also very academically and pre-professionally motivated.”

Three counterpoints:

1.) The data we have doesn’t support your statement. Stanford undergrad, for example, produces about twice as many PhDs per capita than Penn, as seen here: https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/bacorigins_2003-2012.pdf (about 11% of Stanford undergrads go on to get a PhD, compared to 5.5% of UPenn grads).

Stanford’s PhD production rate is actually much closer to Yale (12.5%) or Brown (11%) (schools with less pre-professional vibes) than to Penn.

To me, PhD placement shows what chunk of the student population is NOT interested in pre-professional pursuits.

By the way, do you want to know which top school has the closest PhD production to UPenn? Northwestern - at 6.7% in comparison to Penn’s 5.5%.

2.) Also, the structure of Stanford’s college shifts the culture there too - it’s set up much more similarly to Harvard (with a school of Humanities, Science, and then Engineering) as opposed to Penn, which has many more directly professional undergradaute schools (business, nursing, and engineering). This also changes (dampens?) the pre-professional vibe on Stanford’s campus.

3.) Student composition: your main argument is, both schools have students that are “social and also very academically and pre-professionally motivated.” Well, whoop-tee-do. This is weak sauce when you compare the culture of student populations - and blend in the structure of the schools and data we have on the subject. Stanford seems to have considerably more people interested in academic careers than Penn, a lack of purely pre-professional undergrad schools (outside of engineering), and an admissions policy that results in a sizable chunk of the population (math whizzes, Caltech types) that would rarely - if ever - choose Penn. On aggregate, then, this decreases Stanford’s standing as a comparator to Penn, vis a vis other schools (like Northwestern, or Cornell, or Duke).

Again, if the criteria is "“social and also very academically and pre-professionally motivated,” there are so many other schools that fit the bill.

Finally, if you want to talk curriculum and cross-disciplinary structure, Stanford’s lack of professional undergrad schools actually puts it BEHIND Penn here - there’s lots more cross-disciplinary activity at Penn than Stanford. Stanford’s cross-disciplinary work at the undergrad level actually resembles Harvard more - where someone could double major in, say, Comp Sci and Classics, or theater and symbolic systems. Lots of schools are cross-discplinary, but Stanford has a much more “classical” set of educational offerings than Penn, and that detracts from the practical cross-disciplinary offerings presented. You can’t combine business education and engineering at Stanford, or become a nurse with course work in accounting. Stanford has none of that.

@PennCAS2014

I actually think that it’s vital to consider analysis from those who have NOT gone to Penn for undergrad, but have lots of interactions with undergrad students. Would you discount Professor Grant’s analysis simply because he didn’t go to Penn undergrad? In some ways, professors (and others, like post-docs, admins, grad student tutors, etc.) are ideally positioned to assess their student population.

Also, this thread is becoming an echo chamber because the only two Penn undergrad alums posting are you and @Penn95 - two very happy grads. Your views may be rosier than many of your compatriots.

Anyway, there seems to be a lot more focus on cultural problems present at Penn - from the Adam Grant article to the other articles I posted, to a long expose from the NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/education/edlife/stress-social-media-and-suicide-on-campus.html), the list goes on. Much of this has arisen in the past 5-7 years. When I was at Penn in the 2000s, there really was very little of this.

Also, I’m searching, but I can’t find such exposes/critiques about Brown, Swarthmore, etc. etc.

Finally, you state: “Sure Harvard has its zuckerbergs and Penn has its Elon Musks… but the vast majority of kids at these schools (yup, all of 'em) are intellectually identical.”

But that’s just not true. Harvard has a higher number of “off the charts” students per capita than Penn. Let’s use National Merit Scholar awards as an example of those students who are coveted.

http://www.nationalmerit.org/s/1758/images/gid2/editor_documents/annual_report.pdf?gid=2&pgid=61

In 2016, Harvard had 233 of them, in comparison to 138 at Penn, even though Penn is 40% larger than Harvard!

Or, look at the Putnam math winners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lowell_Putnam_Mathematical_Competition#Winners

A very small band of schools - those that typically accumulate the premier math talent in the country - dominate the list.

I don’t think it’s “attitude, personalities, and ambition” that’s setting them apart - Harvard, Stanford, etc. simply get a higher proportion of students with more intellectual horsepower. I’m sure if you looked at # of intel science award winners, Google science fair, Siemens Competition, whatever, a disproportionate number of students go to a handful of schools. And guess what? Penn (and Cornell and Duke and Columbia and others) aren’t in that small handful.

On aggregate, then, certain schools are amassing more talent than others.

(The same, by the way, goes for the amassing of faculty talent - if you look at the number of nobel laureates, mcarthur fellows, etc. at Harvard and Stanford, it really is quite astounding. These two schools alone have amassed perhaps the greatest concentration of research talent in human history.)

Its one thing for @Penn95 and @PennCAS2014 to attempt to compare Penn to UChicago; but seriously once you start comparing Penn to Harvard you are becoming a parody of yourselves. Please stick to your rightful peers – Duke, Dartmouth, JHU and NU. Still a great group.

My son is finishing his freshman year at Penn, from what he has told me about his experience, almost all of @Penn95 posts ring true… Not just posts on this page but all posts Ive read under U Penn, thanks for taking the time -appreciate your insight!

Like you’ve said, he found students to be collaborative and non competitive in classes but bc they are movers and shakers there is an atmosphere of do more/ be more that creates a competitive environment. This is self-motivated competition as to how you measure up, FOMO is ever present…

His biggest complaint has been with the hyper competitive club environment. He says Its on steroids.

He was caught off guard by this.

He wasn’t expecting needing a polished resume and several rounds of interviews to still be denied entry into most clubs. Literally he applied for 20 clubs to get 1 …luckily they changed the rules so that clubs can now only go two rounds of interviews before deciding (but 20 applications times 2 equal 40 interviews to only get into 1 club …= major stress!) Many spots are bc of who you know or connections (but hey that is real life) …luckily he kept applying/ trying to make connections so in the spring round was rewarded with several coveted spots. Still, shuffling all of this in the first few months of school while trying to find a fit and manage the collegiate environment was crazy stress… He thinks the school really needs to work on this hyper-competitive club culture. I think @Cue7 is right when he articulated this about the school environment and that the administration could do more to reduce this.

Yet when he asked fellow students and upperclassmen for help w regards to this they were all willing to collaborate/ give him insight and connections so he was able to succeed, or find other ways/paths. Students sincerely want each other to succeed.

@runswimyoga said: “His biggest complaint has been with the hyper competitive club environment. He says Its on steroids. He was caught off guard by this.”

That’s the best way to put it. I was shocked by the interviews, resume reviews, tryouts, etc. for CLUBS. That’s not to say students can’t find their place somewhere (they certainly can), but the process you describe resonates with me - applying for 15+ clubs is not uncommon.

I don’t think this is even my Chicago background talking - this just seems so strange!

How bizarre. I was a member of one of the two top Harvard Finals clubs. There was an interview. But a resume and all this nonsense … ?? Shows you the priorities at Penn. I understand from colleagues at Uchicago, that fraternities and sororities are even much more low key there.

@PennCAS2014,

Thanks for the long post on how Penn and Northwestern are dissimilar but it would be great if you can do the same for the elephant in the room. Stanford is even more dissimilar in my opinion. This whole conversation was started by someone saying Stanford is the closest peers culturally which is even more laughable if you think the comparison with NU is ridiculous.

Nobody said Evanston is like Philly but at least it’s more urban than Palo Alto. Stanford is called the FARM after all. Northwestern is with BIG but Stanford is with Pac12 with even more accomplished athletes and many Olympians.

@Cue7 I agree the issue with the clubs being exclusive and hyper competitive to get in definitely exists. The good thing is that there are so many of them that people finally find their place. But they might not get their first choices for sure.

Regarding the Stanford vs Penn comparison, there things you mention are some differences. But the things I mention are similarities. Similarities in campus culture and student body vibes are not weak sauce. Also regarding your point about Phd, keep in mind that Penn has a much bigger undergrad student body than Yale and Stanford. Also the percentage of students that go on to grad school (not just Phd), is similar to Yale.
Also regarding your point about Stanford admits rarely choosing Penn instead, it is not completely true. Yes Stanford admits rarely choose any school other than Harvard, MIT, Yale, Princeton but out of the non-HYPSM schools Penn probably gets the bigger share of Stanford cross admits due to Wharton and especially the coordinated dual degree programs, for which people routinely turn down HYPSM.

@Chrchill Try some reading comprehension. We are talking about cultural peers. Also you are delusional if you think Chicago is not Penn’s peer (or that it is Harvard’s peer). However many times you say it, it won’t become reality.

Also this is anecdotal, but any Penn student can agree with this: there are so many Penn students who had Stanford as their top choice and Penn as their second because the schools have similar vibes. And in the few years I have been interviewing Penn applicants I have met any applicants who say they think Penn has a more similar to Stanford than the other ivies. That is just anecdotal, but there are may actual things that support that Penn and Stanford have similar vibes. Similar does not mean identical. But i challenge you to find an ivy that has a more similar vibe/culture to Stanford than Penn.

@penn95 other than proffering conclusory reasoning, all you offer are personal attack. I have decided that you are too hostile to Stanford, UChicago and reality to be worthy of any serious engagement.

@Chrchill oh please a look at any thread on CC will prove that i am as big a Stanford proponent as a Penn one. As for the personal attack, i don’t think i have been personally attacking you, we both exchange some pretty strong words from time to time, but i am sorry if you feel this way, it is just that some of the things you say are outrageous.

@Penn95 at least I am intellectually consistent. You attack UChicago for ED, when Penn has been the pioneer of this among top schools. You cite rankings when they suit you from years ago, and then dismiss the same rankings they placed Uchicago in fourth and then third place for the last several year.

@Chrchill we are not doing this again…as i have told you many times before, i believe Penn should scale down on their ED to less than 50% of the total class. so of course i m calling out chicago for admitting 70-80% of the class early this year.

I am also consistent with my view on the rankings. Just because a school is ranked at some spot on the USNews top 10 does not mean that this is the actual spot that most people assign/view it as deserving. Penn was top4 for many years, never considered part of HYPSM. Columbia and Chicago have been top 4 for many years now, there are not considered equivalent to HYPSM. As i have said before you take rankings too literally. There is a myriad other things influencne the true standing of a school.

We have had the exact same discussion on another thread…

@Penn95, based on my anecdotal experience, Penn CAS students get really uncomfortable when I ask them if they went to Wharton.

Btw, Adam Grant is awesome.

@Penn95 said: “Out of the non-HYPSM schools Penn probably gets the bigger share of Stanford cross admits due to Wharton and especially the coordinated dual degree programs, for which people routinely turn down HYPSM.”

This is NOT true. There is data that completely undermines @Penn95’s point. See here: https://facultysenate.stanford.edu/past-senates/40th-faculty-senate/40th-senate-minutes (go to p. 16 of the June 12, 2008 minutes).

In this report, Stanford Admissions Dean Richard Shaw presents cross-admit data to faculty, and shows how many cross admits choose other schools. How much does Penn get? 2% of the cross admits. This is less than USC, and really not that different from Rice, UCLA, Brown, or any other school. It’s a negligible amount.

Wharton and all those dual degree programs don’t even seem to make an impression to those Stanford and UPenn cross-admits. Stanford’s only losing 2% of cross-admits to Penn.

In terms of real numbers: of the ~2100 Stanford accepts a year, about 400 choose to go elsewhere. About 280 of the 400 (70%) choose HYPM. How many go to Penn? 2% - or about 8 students. This is nothing, and, isn’t a larger share than many other schools.

It’s contentions like @Penn95’s that disappoint me. Certain positions are presented strongly (like Penn getting the most Stanford cross-admits after the non-HYMP schools) or as @PennCAS2014 said, the caliber of student is virtually identical at Harvard and Penn. Such assertions artificially - and, sometimes, falsely - inflate Penn, and then there’s no evidence to back it up.

It’s not a good look.

I’d say cross admits deliberating Stanford vs. M&T are a real number, cross admits for CS probably choose Stanford.
I have no horse in this race BTW, but ’ is x better than z’ is pointless for students still deliberating.
Describing the competitive process to apply to clubs is useful.
If you could be more precise and speak about specific clubs that require two rounds of interviews and resumes (film club? A Cappella? Cooking club? …) and if you could list non competitive clubs it’d be useful.
Also, how common is it for students to take a class pass/fail?