Wharton Prof Adam Grant: UPenn's Hypercompetitive Culture is the Worst I've Seen

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
41

@MYOS1634 - the cross-admits deliberating between Stanford v. M&T may be a “real number,” but you want to know how many cross-admits actually choose Penn after that debate? Maybe 6-10 a year. It’s a negligible amount.

This thread, btw, isn’t here to help students deliberate between schools, it’s here to shine a light on a cultural problem at Penn, one that a bigtime Wharton professor highlighted. There are plenty of other threads in this space that talk about Penn’s academic offerings, outcomes, etc.

Also, this isn’t about Stanford being better than Penn - but if there’s blatant misinformation being spread (as @Penn95 did), it’s best to correct the misinformation with evidence.

If you’d like to learn more about competitive clubs, you could start a new thread - the list of competitive clubs at Penn is certainly enough to fill a thread all on its own! Remember, Penn undergrad has (literally) HUNDREDS of clubs (or RSOs - registered student orgs), so you could fill pages on a new thread to talk about the competitive ones.

(To get you started, my knowledge here is old, but as I recall, here are some competitive clubs/orgs that require interviews, lots of campaigning, tough tryouts, etc.: UA [undergrad student gov’t], Parliamentary Debate team, Model UN, Mock Trial, Glee Club, Penn Masala [South Asian A Cappella], Penn Dhamaka [south asian dance], Quaker Notes [a cappella], Off the Beat [a cappela], lots of the investment/consulting clubs - especially the Wharton ones, a lot of the competitive club/jv sports teams, like sprint football, club field hockey, rugby, etc., Mask and Wig Club [comedy troupe], Daily Pennsylvanian [student newspaper - not sure how competitive they are any more], lots of the governance/oversight councils, like the student-run Student Activities Council, etc.)

Really, a discussion of clubs deserves its own thread.

42

It is a great debate over the Penn potential problems. By the way, universities in CA such as Stanford, UC, USC have been benefited from the rapid progress of Silicon Valley (high technology), however universities around New York region such as Penn have been benefited from financial industry because manufacturing industry has been plummeting.

43

@Cue7 the data you present are from a decade ago. Nowadays there are way more east coast kids who apply to Stanford. If you were actually a Penn undergrad i the last 5-6 years you would know that there are many dual degree and Wharton kids who choose Penn over HYPSM. Also USC as you say could be chosen due to location, but from the non-HYPSM elite schools, Penn does get the biggest part of the cross admits. Also a look through CC shows that there are many threads of people debating Stanford/Harvard vs Penn dual degrees. Btw there are more dual degrees than just M&T.

Also btw the average student at all the top 10 or so schools is pretty much the same, What Harvard or Stanford differ is that their top 5-10% consist of the super genius prodigious, something which is much less true in the other top schools.

What is the blatant misinformation that I have spread?

What is not a good look is trying so hard to find things that are wrong with Penn. Recycling old articles and making gross exaggerations and generalizations of the student body. You almost look like you have an agenda.

@kimfuge88 lol says the Duke or NU or whatever you are…from my anecdotal experience students in these schools get really insecure that they did not go to an ivy. so of course you would ask that question…
And yes Adam Grant is awesome, I had him as a professor.

44

@Penn95 …

Three comments:

1.) Let me present more recent data that further undermines your baseless points re competitiveness between Penn and Stanford:

https://facultysenate.stanford.edu/past-senates/43rd-faculty-senate/43rd-senate-minutes

Go to p. 20 of the October 7, 2010 Stanford Faculty Minutes in the above link.

Per that report from Stanford’s Admissions Dean Richard Shaw, UPenn did not make the list of top 12 universities that share the highest percentage of cross-admits with Stanford. (Berkeley was the most common cross-admit school, with 27% of Stanford admits earning acceptance to Cal. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, MIT, Duke, USC, UCSD, and Brown were also popular cross-admit schools. No other schools had more than 10% of cross-admits with Stanford.)

Based on Dean Shaw’s data. no more than 10% of Stanford’s acceptances in 2010 were also accepted to UPenn.

Further, Dean Shaw noted that, outside of HYPM, no school took more than 2% of Stanford’s admits. So, at least as recently s 6.5 years ago, Penn had absolutely no improvement in their “competition” with Stanford.

Since 2010, Stanford has only gotten MORE competitive in terms of admissions. In 2010, for example, its overall yield was about 72%. Now, it’s about 82%.

Do you really think, as everything at Stanford has only gotten STRONGER in the past 6 years, that Penn is doing BETTER now than 6.5 years ago? With Stanford’s yield up 10% in 6 years, and, traditionally, 70% of cross-admits who deny Stanford going to HYPM, how could UPenn possibly be improving here?

2.) You ask if I have an “agenda.” Initially, no, I had no agenda - either on this board or the Chicago board (my two frequent posting sites). Of late, however, I keep reading all the bombastic posts (with incomplete analysis) you make about Penn (and, similarly, all the pompous assertions @Chrchill makes about Chicago), and it’s important to present readily available data that provides crucial counterpoints and perspective.

Make no mistake, I have no problem with Penn - I’m lucky enough to be an alum, and if I never matriculated, I’d never have discovered my fav college greasy spoon - the Greek Lady in West Philly. I enjoyed my time there, and it’s a good school.

I do have a problem with assertions you make that have no basis, that artificially inflate Penn’s standing. So far on this thread, you’ve said that Penn gets the greatest share of Stanford admits of non-HYPM schools, but you present no data for this. The most recent data I have, on the other hand, shows just how irrelevant Penn is in Stanford’s cross-admit pool. Further, you argue that, recently, “more east coast kids” are applying to Stanford, but, as recently as 6 years ago, Penn wasn’t even in the top 12 of cross-admit schools with Stanford.

You never present data to back up what seem to be hunches found in skewed places - like College Confidential, or “what you hear” around campus.

Honestly, are you a little surprised that, per a report to faculty, Stanford takes 98% of cross-admits from Penn? How much better do you think the situation has gotten for UPenn when Stanford has surpassed even Harvard for selectivity and yield in the past few years?

Your ability to take data that convincingly shows Penn’s irrelevance and then spin it into something meekly positive is both astounding and absurd.

Here’s the highest compliment I can give you: I hope UChicago’s admissions department hires you soon. You’re just the sort of marketer they’ve been accumulating over the past few years, as they continually try to show their (false) relevance next to Stanford, Harvard, et. al.

(And, come to think of it, maybe Penn should hire @Chrchill as an admissions rep - his comments about Penn students’ bartending skills are amusing - and remind me of running into Penn undergrads at Feb Club - a month of meaningless drinking for Penn seniors!)

3.) Oh, and finally - if you had a class with Adam Grant, you know how awesome he is, AND how perceptive/insightful he is. If he says Penn’s culture is the worst he’s ever seen, that should be taken very, very seriously. Along with Angela Duckworth, Grant is probably one of Penn’s most important, prized professors. (Let’s hope Harvard or Stanford don’t poach him soon, eh?)

Grant’s devoted his life’s work to these sorts of issues, and he’s about as perceptive a guy as I’ve ever met, and that includes, ahem, the numerous nobel prize winners I met at Chicago. (Can’t let you and @Chrchill forget I went to these schools too!)

45

@Cue7 the only difference between my pomposity and yours is that I can express mine in one sentence whereas you use up an endless supply of innocent pixels to do so. For the record, in my well considered opinion, and as someone with three degrees including one from Harvard College, Harvard and Stanford are the two top universities in the world. That does not make a UChicago irrelevant. It is among a select handful of elite US universities globally recognized as such. UChicago as an absolute academic peer of both Harvard and Stanford. However, as an undergraduate destination, it is a clear notch below them.

46

I’ve discussed my lack of regard for editing/culling on a discussion board before, my dear @Chrchill

This means that the only difference between my pomposity and yours is that I’m anything but pompous about either Penn or Chicago.

Scrutiny should rule the day!

47

@Cue7 Dearest – your regard is a matter of supreme indifference to me. You just posited that UChicago is irrelevant. This speaks volumes about you.

48

@Cue7 so you posted a link showing that 11% of Harvard’s incoming class are national merit scholars and 5.5% of Penn students are national merit scholars in order to prove that the VAST MAJORITY of students at Harvard and Penn are not intellectually identical? Cause that link showed the 95.5% of Penn students and Harvard students had the same standing with regard to national merit scholar designations. And then you posted a link about another .04% of Harvard’s undergraduate student body between 2000 and 2016 coming in the top five of a math competition, to once more prove that the VAST MAJORITY OF STUDENTS at Harvard and Penn are not intellectual peers? That feels weird… Like, you feel it too, right? it’s strange…

Perhaps it’s hard to imagine if you haven’t gone to an Ivy undergrad in the last 10 years… but we’re all pretty much the same, intellectually speaking. We know this because we interact a lot. We hung out together in high school before we matriculated at our various Ivies. We then kept in touch during college when we visited each other at the various spring fling concerts we all hold. We collaborated and exchanged ideas during our inter-ivy affinity group conferences. We discussed our similarities at our ivy only debate tournaments. Now we chill together at the companies we all work for with one another and the Ivy League grad schools we all attend. We enjoy each other’s company at our ivy-only social gatherings, mixers, galas, etc. Sure, sometimes we make fun of Brown students for barely having to attend class and yeah we poke fun at the Princeton kids for being weirdos-- but at the end of the day we know we’re all pretty much cut from the same cloth. I’m not saying that certain schools don’t have higher proportions of students with particular interests. It sounds like from what you posted that more kids at Harvard really like math. I bet more kids at Penn really like money or drinking or something. But the VAST MAJORITY (not the 5.5% of extra national merit scholars at Harvard, but rather, THE VAST MAJORITY) of us are intellectually identical.

49

And sure, Professor Grant can say what he likes. I like him quite a bit. His opinion matters quite a bit less than those people who have actually experienced undergrad life at Penn because he only sees Penn students in VERY specific situations. But he adds great value to every conversation he joins. I support! One vote for Professor Grant!

The people on this board, however, who perhaps TA’d a few classes or taught a writing seminar, or have never been to Penn, or have not been to Penn within the last 8 years are not, however, really qualified or in a position to know what it’s like to be an undergrad at Penn. So to speak about it as if one were in the know seems rather problematic. That’s what I was taking issue with-- never my main man Profizzle Grant.

50

Oh, @Chrchill - if only I had standing to say that UChicago is irrelevant! Please remember, I didn’t say that - Stanford’s Admissions Dean Richard Shaw did - by not even including Chicago in its list of Stanford’s top 20 admissions competitors. (Penn made the list, though - at like #19 - go UPenn!)

Also, @Chrchill - @PennCAS2014 is making cute comparisons between Penn and your alma mater (Harvard) again. Want to address this?

@PennCAS2014 - your use of “vast majority” and ivy smarminess is cute. You really do give credence to the New Repubic’s declaration of UPenn as the most insecure ivy! (https://newrepublic.com/article/120185/inside-americas-number-1-party-school-university-pennsylvania)

Please note, the “vast majority” of students (and faculty) at any top 25 private college are pretty much the same - from Harvard to Vanderbilt to Penn and Emory. But that’s probably not the reason you went to Penn, or why most go to Harvard, is it? It’s to mingle with those off-the-charts students, faculty, and future world changers, and maybe become one yourself.

Guess what? These are in the minority at any top college, but there’s a much higher percentage of them at Harvard than Penn. (Or Harvard and Vanderbilt.) And that’s what makes Harvard, Harvard.

Anyway, enjoy knowing that the “vast majority” of Penn students are identical to Harvard students! Could you promise me, though, that the next time I compare Penn to Emory, you don’t come blazing to Penn’s defense? And why would you? The vast majority of Emory and Penn students are pretty much interchangeable.

(Finally, I’m not writing to say I have the definitive word on the Penn undergrad experience. Rather, Im trying to present counterpoints - points actually raised by those with considerable knowledge - that undermine the constant elation that @Penn95 and you have about UPenn. For whatever reason [insecurity?] the Penn [and Chicago] blowhards seem to be the worst.)

51

@Cue7 @PennCAS2014 sorry – the Penn guy just served my Martini … All I will say is there are only four Ivies that count, and Penn is not one of them. In fact, whats now widely known as the “ivies plus” – Stanford, UChicago and MIT – are the real top ivy competition.

52

@Chrchill - hah! That reminds me of a Columbia athletic coach’s recruitment pitch: “there are four schools that make the ivy league famous, and another four schools that are just lucky to be in the ivy league.”

53

I am not surprised that UChicago is not a top competitor for Stanford college Many UC’s are. It’s a different market for the most part. I guarantee you however that Chicago Booth which has now beaten Stanford Business School several times in rankings is a big competitor. And UChicago law school ranked four competes with Stanford law school. Uchicago is also a huge Stanford competitor in many graduate school academic subjects.

54

@Chrchill … stay on point, this thread is about undergrad. I could write volumes on what’s wrong (and right!) with Penn’s graduate/professional school culture, but this thread isn’t about that…

Also, I have no doubt that Chicago’s grad programs compete with Stanford but, again, at the undergrad level, Stanford hasn’t even addressed Chicago as a relevant competitor. (UPenn undergrad isn’t a Stanford undergrad competitor either, btw. They’re both irrelevant to the big S.)

55

Read my first sentence in my 53 above.

56

@Cue7 I would actually be very interested in your observations about penn graduate and professional school culture.
This would not be the first time that a thread expands into its penumbra. No need to be dogmatic. Deviate !

57

I have no problem with your first sentence in post #52 @Chrchill - or your second. It’s the remainder of the paragraph where you talk about graduate schools that is irrelevant.

Save some innocent pixels and cut the fat!

58

@Cue7 thank you for noticing it’s “ivy” smarminess and not just regular smarminess-- i was feeling insecure until you acknowledged it. :slight_smile:

Also, still waiting on proof that there is a “much higher” percentage of those students at Harvard than Penn. You showed me a link that demonstrated 5.5% of Harvard students had a different national scholar designation than Penn students and that .04% of Harvard students within the last 16 years were demonstrably better at math than Penn students… But much higher? meh… still feeling weird

And I encourage you to look at all of my posts! I am the first person to admit that when choosing between top colleges, fit is what matters! What sets Penn and Harvard apart is not just the top 1% of their students-- it’s the fact you are mingling with a combination of the most brilliant minds and the most well connected and richest families in the world, all on 2 of the most well resourced campuses in the history of the universe (as far as we know). When is the last time Emory students were invited to the ivy-only networking event at the Princeton Club? When is the last time that all (not most, all) of the absolutely most elite banking/consulting firms recruited off of Emory’s campus? When is the last time that Emory students were able to take classes at a top 10 law school and do research with the most published business faculty in the world all while majoring in English in a department that is consistently considered one of the top 5 english lit departments in the country? When is the last time that Emory students got to do research at a university that receives the second most in funding from the NIH? When is the last time an emory student was able to pursue a dual degree in business and international relations from the best/first undergrad business school in the country and a college at which the former Vice President of the United States is a professor leading a center dedicated to global affairs? These are real institutional differences that can affect every student on campus, not just the extra 5.5% of national merit scholars. Is the average Emory student dumber than the average Penn student? honestly i don’t know because, as you know, i live in my ivy-only bubble and I can’t see people who didn’t go to an ivy undergrad. But if I COULD see an emory student I bet they’d be smart as a whip… also note, i didn’t say ‘interchangeable’ – i said intellectually identical. Please, PLEASE never exchange the student bodies at Penn and Harvard. I don’t think Harvard kids can or should drink that much!! It might damage their genius brains :’(

59

@Cue7 it is not useful to divorce a college from its university. The market perception and prestige on a global level is for the institution in its entirety. It may make sense to do so for someone who is narrowly focused on the undergrad experience. But as an investment in a degree, it is the university’s reputation that provides the bang for the buck. As to Penn, all jokes aside, it is a top pre- professional school – Wharton, engineering, nursing – and graduate professional schools in many fields. But it is just not a force in academic subjects, especially in many graduate departments.

60

@PennCAS2014

Sigh… You did exactly what I hoped you wouldn’t do - come blazing to Penn’s defense when I compared it to Emory. And, as part of the defense, you cite “ivy-only networking events at the Princeton club” and recruitment from “absolutely most elite banking/consulting firms.”

My gosh, tongue in cheek as this may be, you’re not doing a good job of selling Penn or undercutting penn stereotypes.

Yes, and I’ll say that the “vast majority” of Penn and Emory undergrads are intellectually identical. Not interchangeable, intellectually identical.

Please provide counterpoints to show this is not the case. From average SAT scores, avg hs gpas, national merit scholars, etc they both look pretty darn similar to me…

@Chrchill - it absolutely is useful to divorce when talking about admissions in particular. How else would you explain Brown being a bigger competitor to Stanford undergrad than Berkeley?